Was the word "kunig/kunigas/kunigur" a gothic word?

Mon Sep 18 07:11:09 UTC 2006

Hi Ingemar,

Many thanks for your precise, fast and long answer.
Now I think I understand what was no clear for me (with my 
approximate English).

I'am very happy to know that you are a great expert for history of 
Goths
I will soon start to read  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths and 
the links presented inside this text.

Very strange your "Kinnekulle" and my "Canigo" meeting themselves by 
our exchange.

In Narbonne the stones in the old chulch are still there. Nobody 
will take them away 
I saw them last year.

I found the message from David Salo.

Still thank you

You will have news about the end of my research on Canigo. 

Cordialement
Michel

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Michel,
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "michelsauvant" <michelsauvant@>
> wrote:
> 
> > 1. If  I understand you well, you support my assumption :
> > - If I consider that Canigo is a normal mutation after 460 years 
> > (around 415-875) of the name  "Kunig hauh" or "Kunighauh" (or 
> > something with a spelling not very far from Kunig), you have 
some 
> > reasons to think that this expression was a possible gothic 
> > expression used by Visigoths around 415.
> > - And for you the meaning is "King's height", and never "noble 
> > height", 
> 
> Yes, if the ground word is 'kuningaz', which is Protogermanic for 
king
> , it must be related to the king and not the nobility generally. 
> 
>  
> > 2. I found that the last Þiuðans, you mentioned in your mail, 
was 
> > Ermanarich, dead in 370.
> 
> Yes, I know he is called þiuðans in Getica but that is a discussed
> matter. I for  one, as well as e.g. Wolfram, regard him just as a
> reiks. The earlier mentioned 'Ostrogotha'might have been a þiuðans 
but
> in any case he seems to have ended up as reiks of only the 
Ostrogoths.
> That is as well discussed. I treat all this, as well as the
> 'kindins'-question, in my dissertation which is available on 
Amazon as
> 'The Well Spring of the Goths', Lincoln, New York, Shanghai 2004.
>  
> > So, if I understand well,  a king like Alaric, living after this 
> > date, was named "rex" (written reiks in reconstituted gothic) 
only 
> > by Romans; and he could have been "kunig" (or something near 
this 
> > word) in the normal gothic vocabulary . But you are not sure 
that 
> > this word "kunig" was used at that time.
> 
> Wether they used the word 'kuningaz´ or similar in practice, 
and the
> writing 'reiks' is only a translation by Wulfila of 'rex', is 
dubious.
> Sure the old 'kuningaz' was probably not forgotten but I think the
> kings, at least in the later Ostrogothic and Visigothic realms, 
could
> have used 'reiks',in any case officially they wrote 'rex' on coins 
et
> c., for the sake of communication with the Roman world, but 
probably
> the old word for kings, 'kuningaz'or a related word, should have 
been
> in use among the people. We have no help of Wulfila or the 
Classical
> authors in this matter and hence I do not know. There are some 
other
> MSS but I have not read them that thoroughly.
> 
> > Note:  Alaric married himself in Narbonna (year 412). Narbonne 
is at 
> > 70 kms North of Canigo. And we can see the Canigo from the hills 
> > around Narbonna. And the Visigoths arriving directly on boats at 
> > Collioure (Cautioliberis at that time) could see from the sea 
and 
> > from the port the magnificent landscape with the Canigo in the 
> > middle. The same I can see from my house near Collioure.
> 
> I know Narbonne and remember it with joy and pleasure.It is a
> wonderful and inspiring town. There is among else an exellent
> lapidarium in an old former church, which I visited when I was 
working
> with research of Visigothic stone art in Southern France, Spain and
> Portugal in cooperation with the university of Léon. It is  as well
> the mouth of Canal Midi. From there I also visited Carcassone by 
rail. 
> 
> > 3. You presented me two other words "kindins" and "kinsman". For 
me 
> > they can't have a relation with the name Canigo. Are they gothic 
or 
> > later words for "kuni
"
> 
> No, they are directly related to just 'kindins' which is a nameform
> that appear rather Nordic when comparing with other 'kind'-areas in
> the sense of 'family-areas' - in a way related 
to 'clan'. 'Kindins' is
> a Gothic word however.
> 
> The different 'kuni' are generally interpreted as 'clans' even if I
> think this is not exactly the meaning- the Germans have better 
names
> for this - but close enough. I assume the kuni-members originally 
came
> from the same origin-area under the tribal chief who ruled as the
> leading kinsman, family man. Every kunja had their own religious
> symbols and they had an ancestor cult as well and the 
reiks/kuningaz
> also was religious leader in that very limited sense. Since 
the 'kuni'
> were kept together by the 'kindins' I regard him as 'kinsman', 
family
> man' and not as 'judge', that he was called by the Romans. In that 
way
> there is a probable real connection with 'kind' and 'kuni' but I 
dare
> not say it is linguistically correct.
> 
> > 4.  I think suddenly that "Canigo" could be a mutation of the 
> > expression "Kuni hauh". The guttural first "h" could have been 
mute 
> > in a "g" after 460 years. In this case the meaning of Canigo 
would 
> > be "Height of (our) kin". Do you think  it's  a name for a 
> > mountain!! 
> 
> It is as well possible, indeed. I live at the foot of just such a
> mountain called 'Kinnekulle', older 'Kindakull', that is by most
> researchers understood as just 'the Kin Hill', the home of a tribe
> based on broad family connections.''Kin' is more 
exactly 'ätt/aett' in
> Swedish and hence it literally means 'Aettekullen'. Kulle' is
> literally a natural lesser height, but this is indeed a mountain. 
If,
> as I wrote above, 'kuni' in Gothic is the same as 'kind' in Nordic,
> which 'kindins' originally suggest, you could very well see it as 
the
> 'kin mountain, family/clan mountain´,'the kuni or kunja 
mountain'-it
> makes sense as well. Hopingly you are a better linguist than me 
who am
> just an historian.
> 
> >    
> > 5. Your answer shows me that some gothic words are not in the 
gothic 
> > glossaries I was able to read on the web (vocabulary coming from 
the 
> > Bible translated around year 350, before the end of  Þiuðans 
reign). 
> > Do you know a more completed gothic glossary we can read on the 
web, 
> > with all the words you presented me?
> 
> There are a number of glossaries that are just recently shown in
> Gothic list with links in a message from David Salo. I suggest you
> search for messages from him or just generally seek the net for his
> name. Still remember that 'kind'-(Not English 'friendly' but
> pronounced with 'i' as in 'spirit'!)- is not existant in known 
Gothic
> but only 'kindins'. I also doubt that 'kuningaz' stands there, at
> least not in Streitbergers Gotische Elementarbuch, since all 
wordlists
> are based on Wulfila and he consquently uses reiks or the Greek or
> Latin eqivalents and he often uses as well 'þiuðans' both for 
> 'reiks','emperor', 'kindins' and 'God'. Kuningaz is Protogermanic.
> 
> Bonne chance!
> Ingemar
>

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