Question cocerning the native term for god(s) and imported Christianity

[Richard Smith]

Thanks Chun,

i guess we all work so hard to see the whole picture.
to reach the vantage point of all vantage points----> objectivity.
I'm sure some early missionaries thought they were there
just as I might assume I've reached a vantage point above their own.

But reality seems always skewed by our own interpretation
our stories, our emotion, and our limited comprehension.
I guess if there exists the "paradigm of paradigms"
to see everything sparkling clear and unbiased
it will always be beyond reach
definitely beyond my own...

but I guess knowing our limitations
shouldn't keep us from reaching anyway

-Richard


On 8/30/08 2:17 PM, "Chun Jimmy Huang" <huangc20 at UFL.EDU> wrote:

> Mr. Smith,
> Thank you for sharing the fascinating observations. cultural
> contact in translation amazes me - it is not just about finding
> the closest descriptive terms but also concerned with
> appropriateness in the contacting cultures/ideologies. I love your
> "yeshua-he heals-medicine man" story.
> 
> Also big thanks to those who have posted on this thread. Your
> comments are all inspiring to me. I'll look into the references
> you recommended.
> 
> Chun
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu Aug 28 21:59:27 EDT 2008, Richard Smith <rzs at WILDBLUE.NET>
> wrote:
> 
>> yes it is interesting!
>> 
>> Because "God" is not itself a name and doesn't describe action it
>> was
>> difficult to translate or use among my Wyandot ancestors.
>> The Methodist Episcopal missionaries in the 1800's were strict
>> and
>> uncompromising in their doctrines. Any Wyandot who wasn't
>> convinced
>> the Book they brought was the word of God was considered of the
>>  "heathen party". However the Christian Wyandots who were fully
>> converted to
>> all the doctrines of the Methodists chose to use the descriptive
>> term
>> "Hamendizhu'  or  Ha'???tem??di??u' which translates as
>> "he speaks with a loud voice" but more accurately conveys:
>> "He has the Authority"
>> The Wyandot word for "Jesus" was "Shasus" having no intrinsic
>> meaning
>> just a wyandotaphone  sound that sounded sorta close to  "Jesus".
>> The missionaries might have tried giving the meaning of the
>> original
>> descriptive name Yeshua (He heals,saves) and allowed the
>> Christian Wyandots
>> to voice that meaning in Wyandot language, But unfortunately
>> "he heals" would have been the same word used to describe a
>> medicine man!
>> To the missionaries of this time, medicine people people were of
>> the devil.
>> 
>> ALL Wyandot names described something..until the foreigners
>> arrived and
>> Christian Wyandots reverted to the English way of giving names:
>> Robert, Jim, Edward, Jesus, Joe
>> sounds representing individuals, yet names describing no known
>> action.
>> 
>> see: History of the Wyandott Mission At Upper Sandusky,Ohio.Under
>> the Direction
>> of The Methodist Episcopal Church (1840)  James B.Finley
>> 
>> -Richard Zane Smith
>> Wyandotte, Oklahoma
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/28/08 1:19 PM, "Maxine Baptiste" <mrb1 at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi, as far as I know, the terms used in Catholic prayers are
>>> nativized
>>> terms of
>>> the English equivalent. sisi kri would be the term for Jesus
>>> Christ, san mari
>>> will be the term for Saint Mary, and the term for God would be
>>> the Native word
>>> for "creator" k'wulncutn. This is interesting, Maxine
>>> 
>>> Quoting Chun Jimmy Huang <huangc20 at ufl.edu>:
>>> 
>>>> Tabe (greetings),
>>>> 
>>>> I have been looking at a copy of Dutch-English-Siraya St.
>>>> Mattew's
>>>> for Siraya language revitalization (an indigenous Austronesian
>>>> language in Taiwan). It was edited by the Dutch missionary Daniel
>>>> Gravius in 1661. What I have found is that when translating the
>>>> bible to Siraya, Gravius had kept the native term that referred
>>>> to
>>>> god in general, "alid," and used it to refer to the Christian
>>>> god.
>>>> Later I realized that the same applied to other indigenous
>>>> languages in Taiwan. That is, the Presbyterian missionaries that
>>>> came to Taiwan all kept the native terms for god(s) and
>>>> incorporated them into their Christian missions.
>>>> 
>>>> Curiously, on the other hand, the Spanish Catholic priests who
>>>> went to the Philippines around the same time had replaced the
>>>> native terms for god(s) with "Dios".
>>>> 
>>>> so the different choices in terms of whether appropriating the
>>>> native religious terms into Christianity or not (which may lead
>>>> to
>>>> significant sociolinguistic consequences). It makes me wonder if
>>>> such difference in choice is pertinent to (Presbyterian)
>>>> Protestant vs. Catholics and/or Dutch vs. Spanish.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd much appreciate if anyone can share some insights from the
>>>> American experience or from other regions.
>>>> 
>>>> madag ki alilid (thanks very much)!
>>>> 
>>>> Chun (Jimmy) Huang
>>>> PhD candidate,
>>>> Linguistics, University of Florida
>>>> Special assistant,
>>>> Tainan Ping-pu Siraya Culture Association
>> 
>>