Digest for info-childes at googlegroups.com - 9 Messages in 1 Topic
Pamela Norton
pamelanortonphd at gmail.com
Fri Apr 2 05:53:08 UTC 2010
My aunt spoke for the first time at the age of 4, when she startled everyone
at the table by saying, "Pass the fish, please!"
Pam Norton, PhD, CCC-SLP
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:39 AM,
<info-childes+noreply at googlegroups.com<info-childes%2Bnoreply at googlegroups.com>
> wrote:
> Today's Topic Summary
>
> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics
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> - mystery book (children who begin speaking in sentences)<#127b961f65a2b892_group_thread_0>[9 Updates]
>
> Topic: mystery book (children who begin speaking in sentences)<http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/t/264c11ba69483a9>
>
> Lorraine McCune <mccune at rci.rutgers.edu> Mar 31 09:25AM -0400 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> This does seem to be an under the radar phenomenon! I had one
> participant in my first study who did speak in single words, but also
> had a lot of what seemed like jargon. We eventually realized that
> much of the jargon was "amalgams" or sentences with the words mushed
> together. The one I always remember was "There it is" said with no
> consonants and a singsong intonation of surprise.
>
> Lorraine McCune
>
> At 02:31 AM 3/31/2010, you wrote:
> >info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<info-childes%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>
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>
> Lorraine McCune, EdD
> Chair, Department of Educational Psychology
> Graduate School of Education
> Rutgers University
> 10 Seminary Place
> New Brunswick, NJ 08901
>
> Ph: 732-932-7496 ex. 8310
> FAX: 732932-6829
>
> Web Page: www.gse.rutgers.edu
>
>
>
>
> "Shari Berkowitz" <shariellen at nyc.rr.com> Mar 31 09:42AM -0400 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> I may have already told this anecdote here:
> My daughter's first "word" was:
> 'Don't touch it, it's mine!'
> (with most of the consonants and all of the intention intact).
>
> Can you guess that she was the second child?
> This word-sentence was followed by mama, dada, brother, book, etc. in
> the
> more typical fashion.
>
> Shari Berkowitz
> Mercy College
> Dobbs Ferry, NY
>
>
>
>
> "Nelson, Katherine" <KNelson at gc.cuny.edu> Mar 31 10:04AM -0400 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> Hi to Jesse and all,
> I do not know the book or books referred to, but the phenomenon of late
> talkers who begin to talk in sentences almost as soon as they begin to talk
> at all is not exceedingly rare, at least in my experience. It has occurred
> in my extended family several times: my second child (Laura) said almost
> nothing until the end of the second year, and by 24 months was talking
> extensively in complete sentences. (I had not entered graduate school at
> that time and did not keep a record, but the phenonenon was notable because
> my first daughter talked early and acquired an extensive lexicon by 18
> months.) Laura's daughter (my granddaughter) followed the same pattern -
> virtually no babble, completely normal comprehension, and at 25 months
> beginning with sentences, rapidly catching up. My niece, whom I did not
> track so closely, apparently followed the same pattern.
>
> One of the boys in my 1973 monograph study (second-born) also followed
> this pattern. Those familiar with the monograph recall that I focused on
> individual differences, but the Expressive group was different - these
> children spoke at similar times and rates to the Referential (object-word
> group) but in small phrases or expressions. I think of the silent one's (no
> or a few scattered words rarely used until 2-years) as a rarer but not
> exotically rare case of the individuality of learning to talk. I strongly
> believe that it is a mistake to instruct parents to expect early word
> learning of mainly nouns, but rather to expect individuality in becoming a
> language user. Of course, I believe that it is a mistake for psychologists
> or speech and hearing experts to expect all children to follow the mean
> pattern too. Comprehension of what is said is a much better indication of
> language during the second year than production, in my view. The following
> references discuss the significance of individuality in the process of
> learning to talk.
>
>
> Nelson, K. (1973). "Structure and strategy in learning to talk."
> Monographs of the Society for Research in Child Development 38 (1-2, Serial
> No. 149).
>
> Nelson, K. (1981). "Individual differences in language development:
> Implications for development and language." Developmental Psychology 17:
> 170-187.
>
> Lieven, E. V. M., J. M. Pine, et al. (1992). "Individual differences in
> early vocabulary development: redefining the referential-expressive
> distinction." Journal of Child Language 19: 287-310.
>
> Hampson, J. and K. Nelson (1993). "The relation of maternal language to
> variation in rate and style of language acquisition." Journal of child
> language 20: 313-342.
>
> Nelson, K., J. Hampson, et al. (1993). "Nouns in early lexicons:
> Evidence, explanations, and implications." Journal of Child Language 20:
> 61-84.
>
> Katherine Nelson
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: info-childes at googlegroups.com [info-childes at googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Celeste Kidd [ckidd at bcs.rochester.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:34 AM
> To: info-childes at googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: mystery book (children who begin speaking in sentences)
>
> Hi, Jesse (& all).
>
> I don't think it's likely that these are the books you are looking for,
> since they were only published in 1998 (does that count as years and
> years ago?) and they don't quite follow the flow you describe
> (evaluating various claims, then reaching a maybe reasonable
> conclusion), but I thought it might be helpful to point them out in
> case
> you hadn't already encountered them in your most recent search. Thomas
> Sowell's "Late-Talking Children" and "The Einstein Syndrome: Bright
> Children Who Talk Late" make reference to these sorts of claims. On
> page
> 18 of "Einstein", Thomas Sowell writes:
>
> "In short, there is no standard way in which late-talking children like
> these finally begin to speak ... Some begin to speak as other children
> do, first in babbles and isolated words, and then proceed in stages
> toward normal speech, only later than other children. In other cases,
> however, children with delayed speech development did not coo or babble
> as other infants do, but remained silent right up to the moment where
> they suddenly startle their parents by speaking a complete sentence."
>
> He makes reference to kids in his own and Stephen Camarata's studies on
> late-talkers in this chapter. I am not sure about the reliability of
> these claims, as I have not actually sought out and read the studies he
> refers to. A Dateline NBC episode on Camarata I saw in high school
> called my attention to these.
>
> Sowell mentions a bunch of famous sentences-before-words claims and
> claimers, like hydrogen-bomb inventor Edward Teller, Nobel-prize
> winning
> economist Gary Becker and physicist Richard Feynman. He also talks
> about
> a lot of acquaintances-of-friends who talked late and in whole
> sentences. I checked his website in the hopes of finding something more
> about the studies he refers to, but didn't find them. I did find a link
> to an article where Sowell expresses his skepticism that global warming
> is a thing though
> (http://www.creators.com/opinion/thomas-sowell.html?columnsName=tso),
> which is perhaps an indication of the value Sowell places on empirical
> evidence when making claims.
>
> Good luck in your search!
>
> Cheers,
> Celeste
>
> CELESTE KIDD | Brain & Cognitive Sciences
> Meliora Hall 323F, Box 270268
> University of Rochester, Rochester, NY 14627-0268
> Email: ckidd at bcs.rochester.edu
> Web: www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/ckidd/
> Mobile: 617 515 2461
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Ann Peters <ann at hawaii.edu> Mar 31 08:29AM -0700 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> I did some writing on these issues in the early 80s, particularly
> addressing children who were near Katherine Nelson's Expressive end of the
> continuum. My 1983 monograph, The Units of Language Acquisition, is long out
> of print, but I managed to get back the copyright and it is now posted on my
> web site, for the easy taking.
> ann
>
> Ann M. Peters, PhD
> Professor Emerita and Co-Graduate Chair
> Department of Linguistics, 1890 East West Road
> Honolulu HI 96822 808 956-8602
> ann at hawaii.edu http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/faculty/ann
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nelson, Katherine" <KNelson at gc.cuny.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:05 am
> Subject: RE: mystery book (children who begin speaking in sentences)
> To: "info-childes at googlegroups.com" <info-childes at googlegroups.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean Berko Gleason <gleason at bu.edu> Mar 31 11:40AM -0400 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> For an old book with reference to late talkers starting out in full
> sentences, try Bertrand Russell, 1927, An Outline of Philosophy. He
> repeats the old story about Lord Macauley, who purportedly said nothing
>
> until someone spilled hot tea/coffee on him when he was 4. When asked
> if
> he was OK, he replied, "Thank you, madame, the agony is [quite]
> [somewhat] abated." Macauley's biographer notes that although M may
> not have spoken, he had already read the bible by this age.
>
> Russell also refers to Thomas Carlyle, who was silent until the age of
> 3, but then, on hearing his baby brother cry, asked, "What ails wee
> Jock?"
>
> These anecdotes have an almost timeless appeal, and I think we all know
>
> some of our own. For instance, I have a colleague, a psychoanalyst, who
>
> tells me he said nothing until the age of nearly 4, when his family
> took
> a holiday in Canada. The formerly silent child looked out the train
> window and said, "Look, Daddy, Lake Ontario!"
>
> I'm sure the science is not there (no real studies on groups of
> children
> who are silent until they suddenly burst forth with full blown language
>
> in the preschool years), but the stories, like folk tales, have
> consistent and satisfying elements. So, why do we delight in these
> anecdotes?
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=-AVp6Jm25WEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bertrand+russell+outline+of+philosophy&source=bl&ots=YfmW4Sn0BA&sig=g1V3gmVsznY02LIlj1zBVKfECiE&hl=en&ei=6GezS8WnH8KBlAe3z5C6BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
>
>
> Jean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Aliyah MORGENSTERN <aliyah.morgenstern at gmail.com> Mar 31 07:37PM +0200
> ^ <#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> I highly recommand Ann Peters Units of Language Acquisition, it
> presented an innovative perspective on language acquisition in line
> with Katherine Nelson's work long before construction grammar was used
> in the field of language acquisition or known in France.
>
> Aliyah MORGENSTERN
>
> Professeur de linguistique
> Université Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3
> Institut du Monde Anglophone
> 5 rue de l'Ecole de Médecine
> 75006 Paris
>
>
>
>
> Le 31 mars 10 à 17:29, Ann Peters a écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
> "Dan I. Slobin" <slobin at berkeley.edu> Mar 31 12:58PM -0700 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> Well done, Ann - I mean posting your book. How did you get the
> copyright back? I'd like to try that too.
>
> Warm regards,
> Dan
>
> At 08:29 AM 3/31/2010, you wrote:
> >Department of Linguistics, 1890 East West Road
> >Honolulu HI 96822 808 956-8602
> >ann at hawaii.edu http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/faculty/ann
>
>
> ******************************************************************************************************************************
> Dan I. Slobin, Professor Emeritus of Psychology and Linguistics,
> University of California, Berkeley
> address:
> email: slobin at berkeley.edu
> 2323 Rose St. phone (home):
> 1-510-848-1769
> Berkeley, CA 94708,
> USA
> <http://psychology.berkeley.edu/faculty/profiles/dslobin.html>
> http://psychology.berkeley.edu/faculty/profiles/dslobin.html
>
> ******************************************************************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> "Barbara Zurer Pearson" <bpearson at research.umass.edu> Mar 31 04:11PM
> -0400 ^ <#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> Dear Dan,
> I don't know how Ann did it, but I just asked. So, Random House gave me
> the Spanish language rights to my book back. Their contract department sent
> me an addendum to the original contract. The fun part is that I'm getting my
> book published in Spanish(!) (The little company in Spain has also asked for
> the rights to Basque, Gallego, and Catalan, but they haven't come through as
> easily. I guess it has about zero priority for them.)
>
> Asking is a good starting point.
>
> Cheers,
> Barbara
> *************************************************************
> Barbara Zurer Pearson, Ph.D.
> Research Associate
> Depts of Linguistics & Communication Disorders
> RAB, 70 Butterfield Terrace
> University of Massachusetts
> Amherst MA 01003
>
> Tel: 413-545-5023
> Fax: 413-545-2792
>
> bpearson at research.umass.edu
> www.umass.edu/aae/bp_indexold.htm
> www.zurer.com/pearson/bilingualchild/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan I. Slobin
> To: info-childes at googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: out of copyright
>
>
> Well done, Ann - I mean posting your book. How did you get the
> copyright back? I'd like to try that too.
>
> Warm regards,
> Dan
>
> At 08:29 AM 3/31/2010, you wrote:
>
> I did some writing on these issues in the early 80s, particularly
> addressing children who were near Katherine Nelson's Expressive end of the
> continuum. My 1983 monograph, The Units of Language Acquisition, is long out
> of print, but I managed to get back the copyright and it is now posted on my
> web site, for the easy taking.
> ann
>
> Ann M. Peters, PhD
> Professor Emerita and Co-Graduate Chair
> Department of Linguistics, 1890 East West Road
> Honolulu HI 96822 808 956-8602
> ann at hawaii.edu http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/faculty/ann
>
>
>
>
> ******************************************************************************************************************************
> Dan I. Slobin, Professor Emeritus of Psychology and Linguistics,
> University of California, Berkeley
> address: email: slobin at berkeley.edu
> 2323 Rose St. phone (home): 1-510-848-1769
> Berkeley, CA 94708, USA
> http://psychology.berkeley.edu/faculty/profiles/dslobin.html
>
> ******************************************************************************************************************************
>
>
>
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>
> Ann Peters <ann at hawaii.edu> Mar 31 01:39PM -0700 ^<#127b961f65a2b892_digest_top>
>
> Hi Dan,
> As Barbara said, I just asked - Cambridge in my case. Then I had to get
> it scanned in and do a spell check to check for scanning errors. Good luck!
> ann
>
> Ann M. Peters, PhD
> Professor Emerita and Co-Graduate Chair
> Department of Linguistics, 1890 East West Road
> Honolulu HI 96822 808 956-8602
> ann at hawaii.edu http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/faculty/ann
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan I. Slobin" <slobin at berkeley.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 12:59 pm
> Subject: out of copyright
> To: info-childes at googlegroups.com
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> |
>
> > 2323 Rose St. phone (home):
> 1-510-848-1769
> > Berkeley, CA 94708, USA
> http://psychology.berkeley.edu/faculty/profiles/dslobin.html
> >
> ******************************************************************************************************************************
>
> |-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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