Idiom comprehension in L2 learners

Sun Jun 8 06:43:40 UTC 2014

Peter,

     There is indeed a lot of evidence that second language learners adopt an analytic approach that short-circuits chunking.  However, often the source of their errors and incomplete learning  is transfer, rather than inadequate episodic encoding or chunking.  
     Of course, L2 learners have a perfectly intact RH, so perhaps we want to trace at least some of the problems L2 learners have with idioms to inadequate input.  I am thinking about the interactions I had recently with my granddaughter about the idioms of "pain in the neck" and "pain in the butt".  I must have spent about 10 minutes explaining to her that these were not literally pains, but rather difficult situations or people.  She found it all quite amusing.  If I had spent the same amount of time indulging a second language learner with all the same explanations, I think they would have benefitted just the same.  But, typically, we are not as patient with second language learners as we are with our children and grandchildren.  
    I realize that one anecdote does not prove a point, but trying to find examples of parental tutorials on idioms in even the richest transcript database is going to be difficult.  Instead, I would point to Chukovskij's "From Two to Five" and similar diary-type materials to see how children work together with adults to dig out the meanings of idioms.

-- Brian MacWhinney

On Jun 8, 2014, at 12:58 AM, Gordon, Peter <pgordon at tc.edu> wrote:

> Hi Marilyn,
> 
> I think the problem with this explanation for L2 learners' problems with idiom comprehension is that the same problems should arise for L1 learners.  "kick the bucket" etc. should be just as opaque to the child learning their first language as it is for the L2 learner.  So, the question is: Is it the nature of the learning environment that allows L1 learners to "crack the code", so to speak, or is it in the nature of the learner?  In the case of the first hypothesis, it might simply be the case that the L1 learner just has more exposure to language and idioms and more opportunity to figure the idiomatic meaning.  However, L2 speakers who live full time in the country of the L2 seem to have just as much opportunity to interface in this way.  So maybe it's the second hypothesis, and it's about being a young learner, possibly some form of the "less is more" hypothesis could explain this (right now, I don't see a clear line with that explanation).  One interesting possibility might be related to the fact that idioms are processed in the Right Hemisphere analogue of language areas.  This suggests that, at some point in the L1 learning process, the brain shunts idiomatic material (perhaps due to its non-compositional nature) into RH, where it is processed as chunks, but that this sorting process is not possible for L2 learners because they, in some sense, can only learn bits of language that conform to certain kinds of rule structures that are candidates for Left Hemisphere representation.
> 
> Fun to think about!
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Marilyn Nippold <nippold at uoregon.edu> wrote:
> It is true that individuals who are learning a second language (L2) often struggle to understand the idioms of the L2 (Liu, 2008). This is because idioms do not translate easily from one language to another and are culturally specific. For example, a literal translation of the French idiom avoir le cafard (to have the cockroach) would not make sense to the English-speaking person whose L2 is French until the individual learns that the expression means to be bored and depressed (Delp, 2013) or down in the dumps (Cousin, 1989). Conversely, a literal translation of down in the dumps might confuse the native French speaker who is learning English as an L2. This is in contrast to proverbs, which are more easily translated from one language to another. For example, the following proverb is Russian, but we all understand it instantly:
> 
> "The church is near but the road is all ice. The tavern is far, but I'll walk very carefully." That's just the nature of different types of figurative expressions (and human beings).
> 
> Marilyn Nippold
> 
> University of Oregon
> 
> USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: info-childes at googlegroups.com [mailto:info-childes at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon, Peter
> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 7:39 AM
> To: info-childes at googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Nelson update on Idiom comprehension in child language
> 
> 
> One interesting observation that I've heard is that people who are (late) L2 learners will have problems in using and understanding idioms in the non-native language.  This appears to be true in speakers who have perfect phonology and grammar and might be otherwise indistinguishable from native speakers.  It suggests that the acquisition of idioms is somehow linked to mechanisms that differentiate between L1 and L2 processing.
> 
> 
> Peter Gordon
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Keith Nelson <k1n at psu.edu> wrote:
> 
> HI all.    Here is the specific reference on the the intervention study (also discussed in  the JSLHR research paper) with ASD children for idioms.   Best regards,  Keith N
>                        
> 
> Whyte, E. M., Nelson, K. E, & Khan, K. S. (2013). Learning of idiomatic language expressions                          in a group intervention for children with autism, Autism, 17, 449-464.
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Keith Nelson <k1n at psu.edu>
> Date: Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Idiom comprehension in child language
> To: info-childes at googlegroups.com, Keith Nelson <keithnelsonart at gmail.com>
> 
> Hi all.   I m attaching a JSLHR  paper just out from our lab that reviews lit and presents an intervention study on idiom comprehension.   Cheers,  Keith
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Tom Roeper <roeper at linguist.umass.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi folks--
> 
> 
> just to mention a couple of things--an example I just heard:
> 
>      "I know a shortcut"
> 
>      "well, I know a shorter cut"
> 
> and cases like "you're a slowpoke, but I'm a fastpoke".
> 
> 
> I wrote a paper on idioms with Zvi Penner that appears
> 
> in the volume for Jüregen Weisenborn by Mouton--it
> 
> relates to complex sentences.
> 
> 
>   Work by Ellen Winner on Metaphor seems pertinent
> 
> to children's comprehension of them.  A child with
> 
> a stomache who said"
> 
>        "there's a fireengine in my stomach"
> 
> or a child with a stuffed nose who said:
> 
>        "there's paint in my nose".
> 
> 
> Deviations from compositionality can still be logically
> 
> motivated.
> 
> 
> Tom Roeper
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:09 AM, Mehmet ÖZCAN <mehozcan20 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Hüseyin,
> 
> (I answer all of the questions you posed me personally here thinking that other colleagues might want to comment on them as well)
> 
> ·         (Concerning your question about the location of data collection) The location you are going to collect the data depends totally on the location of the study carried out by Gokmen and her student (as you mentioned) to find out the words determined as "prototype words"; watermelon which is found to be 8th item on the list in Ankara may be the first or third in Urfa or Adana; or orange the first in Mediterranean Region, if you are going to construct your  sentences depending on their list. In a nutshell, prototypicality is idiosyncratic and a common sense of prototypicality occurs when the personal senses of prototypicalities overlap to the sufficient extent.
> 
> ·         One problem with the hypothesis: As far as I understood, you assume that idiomatic expressions are processed within the framework of compositionality theory: the meaning of a phrase or a larger linguistic unit can be grasped by knowing the meaning/function of each element the whole unit contains. This may be the case in most cases, especially when it comes to accessing the literal meaning. As you know, Compositionality Theory has been criticized for not being able to explain the processing of pragmatics in the expressions. Thus, you may revise your assumptions.
> 
> ·         Another thing to concentrate on may be the prototypicality of the idiomatic expression (among other idiomatic expressions) itself rather than the expressions' containing prototypical elements. You know, some birds are birder than other birds. Some idiomatic expressions may have some prototypical features structurally or regarding other qualities.
> 
> ·         Integrating infant directed speech to this study would be too much to my understanding. You will have to carry out longitudinal observations to measure the exposition of a child to idiomatic expressions or the words in the list determined by the previous studies. 
> 
> I am looking forward to hearing about the findings of your demanding study. Good luck in all ways.
> 
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:56:54 AM UTC+3, huy... at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> First of all, I would like to express my excitement about posting my first question in this group (Of course, after reading the older posts).
> 
> I have been reading about Prototype Theory of Eleanor Rosch, which is the point of departure for my M.A thesis, within the frame of child language development. Then I suddenly found myself trying to design steps for (an) experiment(s) in idiom comprehension. I am partly aware of the literature in figurative language processing (thanks to the comprehensive chapter by Gibbs and Colston in http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747). So my questions are as follows:
> 
> ·       What is the direction of research in idiom comprehension in child language?
> 
> ·       Could you suggest me some seminal works in idiom comprehension, or more generally figurative language?
> 
> ·       Is there anyone to help me revise my experimental design?
> 
> ·       What kind of an effect could prototypicality of concepts in idioms have on children's comprehension? (Feel free to share your criticism or advice, if you prefer to look at this research question from another perspective.)
> 
> ·       A third research field having just popped into my mind is child directed speech. In what way can I integrate it into my research?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Huseyin
> 
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> Peter Gordon, Associate Professor
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> Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180
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> Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180
> Teachers College, Columbia University
> 1152 Thorndike Hall
> 525 W120th St. 
> New York, NY 10027
> Phone: 212 678-8162
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