Idiom comprehension in L2 learners
Keith Nelson
k1n at psu.edu
Sun Jun 8 12:57:33 UTC 2014
Peter, Brian, Marilyn, all. I believe that there is an additional
complication for these issues. Namely, tho L2 learners often find idioms
difficult, so do L1 learners. That is, relative to the difficulty/age of
acquisition for idioms and metaphors the vast majority of lexical and
syntactic structures are less difficult--idioms, metaphors, and a small set
of syntactic structures are "late acquisitions."
As regards the relevant interactions that Brian has mentioned, in
naturalistic work the literature appears pretty silent. We have shown in
the Autism paper cited earlier that for children with ASD idioms are indeed
very late acquisitions, but that a small number of engaging and varied
interactions about idiom meaning lead to rapid mastery.
Cheers, Keith
On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 2:43 AM, Brian MacWhinney <macw at cmu.edu> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> There is indeed a lot of evidence that second language learners adopt
> an analytic approach that short-circuits chunking. However, often the
> source of their errors and incomplete learning is transfer, rather than
> inadequate episodic encoding or chunking.
> Of course, L2 learners have a perfectly intact RH, so perhaps we want
> to trace at least some of the problems L2 learners have with idioms to
> inadequate input. I am thinking about the interactions I had recently with
> my granddaughter about the idioms of “pain in the neck” and “pain in the
> butt”. I must have spent about 10 minutes explaining to her that these
> were not literally pains, but rather difficult situations or people. She
> found it all quite amusing. If I had spent the same amount of time
> indulging a second language learner with all the same explanations, I think
> they would have benefitted just the same. But, typically, we are not as
> patient with second language learners as we are with our children and
> grandchildren.
> I realize that one anecdote does not prove a point, but trying to find
> examples of parental tutorials on idioms in even the richest transcript
> database is going to be difficult. Instead, I would point to Chukovskij’s
> “From Two to Five” and similar diary-type materials to see how children
> work together with adults to dig out the meanings of idioms.
>
> — Brian MacWhinney
>
> On Jun 8, 2014, at 12:58 AM, Gordon, Peter <pgordon at tc.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Marilyn,
>
> I think the problem with this explanation for L2 learners' problems with
> idiom comprehension is that the same problems should arise for L1 learners.
> "kick the bucket" etc. should be just as opaque to the child learning
> their first language as it is for the L2 learner. So, the question is: Is
> it the nature of the learning environment that allows L1 learners to "crack
> the code", so to speak, or is it in the nature of the learner? In the case
> of the first hypothesis, it might simply be the case that the L1 learner
> just has more exposure to language and idioms and more opportunity to
> figure the idiomatic meaning. However, L2 speakers who live full time in
> the country of the L2 seem to have just as much opportunity to interface in
> this way. So maybe it's the second hypothesis, and it's about being a
> young learner, possibly some form of the "less is more" hypothesis could
> explain this (right now, I don't see a clear line with that explanation).
> One interesting possibility might be related to the fact that idioms are
> processed in the Right Hemisphere analogue of language areas. This
> suggests that, at some point in the L1 learning process, the brain shunts
> idiomatic material (perhaps due to its non-compositional nature) into RH,
> where it is processed as chunks, but that this sorting process is not
> possible for L2 learners because they, in some sense, can only learn bits
> of language that conform to certain kinds of rule structures that are
> candidates for Left Hemisphere representation.
>
> Fun to think about!
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Marilyn Nippold <nippold at uoregon.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> It is true that individuals who are learning a second language (L2)
>> often struggle to understand the idioms of the L2 (Liu, 2008). This is
>> because idioms do not translate easily from one language to another and are
>> culturally specific. For example, a literal translation of the French idiom*
>> avoir le cafard* (to have the cockroach) would not make sense to the
>> English-speaking person whose L2 is French until the individual learns that
>> the expression means to be bored and depressed (Delp, 2013) or* down in
>> the dumps* (Cousin, 1989). Conversely, a literal translation of* down in
>> the dumps* might confuse the native French speaker who is learning
>> English as an L2. This is in contrast to proverbs, which are more easily
>> translated from one language to another. For example, the following proverb
>> is Russian, but we all understand it instantly:
>>
>> “The church is near but the road is all ice. The tavern is far, but I’ll
>> walk very carefully.” That’s just the nature of different types of
>> figurative expressions (and human beings).
>>
>> Marilyn Nippold
>>
>> University of Oregon
>>
>> USA
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* info-childes at googlegroups.com [
>> mailto:info-childes at googlegroups.com <info-childes at googlegroups.com>]*
>> On Behalf Of* Gordon, Peter
>> *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2014 7:39 AM
>> *To:* info-childes at googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Nelson update on Idiom comprehension in child language
>>
>> One interesting observation that I've heard is that people who are (late)
>> L2 learners will have problems in using and understanding idioms in the
>> non-native language. This appears to be true in speakers who have perfect
>> phonology and grammar and might be otherwise indistinguishable from native
>> speakers. It suggests that the acquisition of idioms is somehow linked to
>> mechanisms that differentiate between L1 and L2 processing.
>>
>> Peter Gordon
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Keith Nelson <*k1n at psu.edu* <k1n at psu.edu>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> HI all. Here is the specific reference on the the intervention study
>> (also discussed in the JSLHR research paper) with ASD children for
>> idioms. Best regards, Keith N
>>
>>
>> *Whyte, E. M., Nelson, K. E, & Khan, K. S. (2013). Learning of
>> idiomatic language expressions in a group
>> intervention for children with autism,** Autism,** 17, 449-464.*
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From:* Keith Nelson* <*k1n at psu.edu* <k1n at psu.edu>>
>> Date: Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: Idiom comprehension in child language
>> To: *info-childes at googlegroups.com* <info-childes at googlegroups.com>,
>> Keith Nelson <*keithnelsonart at gmail.com* <keithnelsonart at gmail.com>>
>>
>> Hi all. I m attaching a JSLHR paper just out from our lab that reviews
>> lit and presents an intervention study on idiom comprehension. Cheers,
>> Keith
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Tom Roeper <*roeper at linguist.umass.edu*
>> <roeper at linguist.umass.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks--
>>
>> just to mention a couple of things--an example I just heard:
>>
>> "I know a shortcut"
>>
>> "well, I know a shorter cut"
>>
>> and cases like "you're a slowpoke, but I'm a fastpoke".
>>
>> I wrote a paper on idioms with Zvi Penner that appears
>>
>> in the volume for Jüregen Weisenborn by Mouton--it
>>
>> relates to complex sentences.
>>
>> Work by Ellen Winner on Metaphor seems pertinent
>>
>> to children's comprehension of them. A child with
>>
>> a stomache who said"
>>
>> "there's a fireengine in my stomach"
>>
>> or a child with a stuffed nose who said:
>>
>> "there's paint in my nose".
>>
>> Deviations from compositionality can still be logically
>>
>> motivated.
>>
>> Tom Roeper
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:09 AM, Mehmet ÖZCAN <*mehozcan20 at gmail.com*
>> <mehozcan20 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Hüseyin,
>>
>> (I answer all of the questions you posed me personally here
>> thinking that other colleagues might want to comment on them as well)
>>
>> · (Concerning your question about the location of data
>> collection) The location you are going to collect the data depends
>> totally on the location of the study carried out by Gokmen and her student
>> (as you mentioned) to find out the words determined as “prototype words”;
>> watermelon which is found to be 8th item on the list in Ankara may
>> be the first or third in Urfa or Adana; or orange the first in
>> Mediterranean Region, if you are going to construct your sentences
>> depending on their list. In a nutshell, prototypicality is idiosyncratic
>> and a common sense of prototypicality occurs when the personal senses of
>> prototypicalities overlap to the sufficient extent.
>>
>> · One problem with the hypothesis: As far as I understood,
>> you assume that idiomatic expressions are processed within the framework of
>> compositionality theory: the meaning of a phrase or a larger linguistic
>> unit can be grasped by knowing the meaning/function of each element the
>> whole unit contains. This may be the case in most cases, especially when it
>> comes to accessing the literal meaning. As you know, Compositionality
>> Theory has been criticized for not being able to explain the processing of
>> pragmatics in the expressions. Thus, you may revise your assumptions.
>>
>> · Another thing to concentrate on may be the
>> prototypicality of the idiomatic expression (among other idiomatic
>> expressions) itself rather than the expressions’ containing prototypical
>> elements. You know, *some birds are birder than other birds*. Some
>> idiomatic expressions may have some prototypical features structurally or
>> regarding other qualities.
>>
>> · Integrating infant directed speech to this study would
>> be too much to my understanding. You will have to carry out longitudinal
>> observations to measure the exposition of a child to idiomatic expressions
>> or the words in the list determined by the previous studies.
>>
>> I am looking forward to hearing about the findings of your
>> demanding study. Good luck in all ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:56:54 AM UTC+3, *huy... at gmail.com*
>> <huy... at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> First of all, I would like to express my excitement about posting my
>> first question in this group (Of course, after reading the older posts).
>>
>> I have been reading about Prototype Theory of Eleanor Rosch, which is the
>> point of departure for my M.A thesis, within the frame of child language
>> development. Then I suddenly found myself trying to design steps for (an)
>> experiment(s) in idiom comprehension. I am partly aware of the literature
>> in figurative language processing (thanks to the comprehensive chapter by
>> Gibbs and Colston in
>> *http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747*
>> <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747>). So my
>> questions are as follows:
>>
>> · What is the direction of research in idiom comprehension in
>> child language?
>>
>> · Could you suggest me some seminal works in idiom comprehension,
>> or more generally figurative language?
>>
>> · Is there anyone to help me revise my experimental design?
>>
>> · What kind of an effect could prototypicality of concepts in
>> idioms have on children's comprehension? (Feel free to share your criticism
>> or advice, if you prefer to look at this research question from another
>> perspective.)
>>
>> · A third research field having just popped into my mind is child
>> directed speech. In what way can I integrate it into my research?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Huseyin
>>
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>> UMass South College
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>> Peter Gordon, Associate Professor
>>
>> Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180
>>
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> Teachers College, Columbia University
> 1152 Thorndike Hall
> 525 W120th St.
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