[Lexicog] Re: The irony of thou

[Hayim Sheynin]

Fritz,

Excuse me, but you are slightly mistaken. Gospodin can never be directed to God. There is an old vocative Gospodi [<from Nom. Gospod') which can be used as an address to God or Gospodi Bozhe [both words are vocatives]. Gospod' can be a synonym for God in all the biblical meanings and epithets, but not gospodin.
Today address Gospodin+Last name serves as superformal or ironic way of address. (But it could be used in diplomatic or business negotiations as Mr. [and Gospozha for a Mrs., or Madam]). Instead they would use just the last name or First name+patronymic, e.g. Ivan Nikolaevich, Piotr Grigor'evich, Nina Fiodorovna, Praskovía Petrovna. Address of type Gospodin Jaschin can be used in the international correspondence [as it translated from Mr. Jaschin, Msrrs. Chomsky, Chomsky & Chomsky (Gospoda C,C & C)]
About the use of addresses in the military, it is very structured science.
Before revolution 1917, every lower rank (private, corporal, sergeant [fel'dfebel], and sergeant major [starshina]) addressed any officer (starting from  prapostchik [a rank  lower than  leutenant])  up to  the most senior of generals):  Vashe blagorodie (Your  nobility).  The  officer   of the lower rank to the officer of higher rank:  Vashe prevoskhoditel'stvo (Your superiority), the officer to general:  Vashe  vysoko-prevoskhoditel'stvo  (Your super-superiority). But when  the  higher officer
or general addressed a junior one: he may say Leutenant Mal'gunov or Gospodin
Leutenant and so on.
The situation was more complicated when gentry titles were involved. It could be printed in the report Leutenant Count Yusupov, Baron Elsten (one person with different last names, because one person could inherit several noble titles. In these cases the address could be changed to Vashe Siyatelstvo (Your shiness[Highness]), for princes and dukes Vashe kniazheskoe siyatel'stvo [Your princely highness]).
     As I wrote in one of the previous messages squires [pomeststchiki] used in
letters addresses to socially equal persons: sudar' (Sire) or milostivui 
gosudar' (merciful Sire), while gosudar' (Sire) was an address to the Tzar (etymologically from Caesar as also is German Keiser) or Gosudar' Imperator or
Vashe Velichestvo [Your Majesty]. In difference with English and German use
(Majesty, Exellenz) the possessive pronouns "Your" in Russian could not be omitted.
The peasants addressed any person of the social class of gentry as "barin" [<possibly from baron]. They also called "barin" the owner of their estate, manor, village or former owner [after reform 1861] up to 1917.
It is amazing but in feudal times preceding the reforms of Peter I, the addresses were much simpler and uniformed and everybody used 2 p. sg. pronoun ty [you], even to boyars (<possibly from Germanic Bauer), princes and Tzar.

Hayim Y. Sheynin


Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling at sil.org> wrote:                                          
  Hayim,
   
  You wrote: 
   
  “Every political change reflects in a change of a formal address. The most famous change in 1917 from gospodin/gospozha/baryshnia (Mr./Mrs/Ms) to tovarisch/comrade. “ 
   
  The same happened with the revolution in Burkina-Faso where French is the language of administration. It resulted in address forms like “camarade colonel” in the military. Now “camarade” has been dropped and it’s back to Monsieur (Mr.). The younger generation in countries like Burkina-Faso, Mali, Côte d’Ivoire often uses “chef” (chief) when addressing themselves to a stranger,  asking for directions or a service. Even the form of address “patron” (boss) is used to a stranger one’s age or above one’s age. But I have not heard that employees address their superior/director by “chef” or “patron.” “Monsieur” is expected.
   
  Is “gospodin” in Russian not also a form of address for “God” as “Lord/Master?” Like “adonay” in Hebrew, “Herr” in German, “Seigneur” in French? Can one address someone in modern Russian by “Gospodin Jaschin”? Or what is the equivalent of Mr.?
   
  Fritz
   
  
      
     
                       

 
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