[Linganth] Substitute x for y

[Martin Walsh]

Re fish & chips twice.  Galey asks "Is there any item like fish and chips
which comes with an non-countable and a countable?"  I can't immediately
think of an English English example that parallels "fish & chips twice"
apart from variations on the same (e.g. "pie & chips twice).  This leads me
to wonder whether our English English fish & chips twice has become frozen
(as it were) as a construction that's limited to this one common context in
which asking for two countables & a non-countable would otherwise be
ambiguous.  But I'm usually more concerned about the amount of chips that
I'm getting than the linguistic expression of quantity, so wouldn't be
surprised to learn that there are other examples past and/or present out
there.

The jokes and English expatriate anguish make it clear that "fish & chips
twice" is a regional / subcultural idiom, puzzling also to the Chinese staff
in my local take-away (where food doesn't come on a plate or anything like
it, but is wrapped in paper, sometimes each item separately and sometimes as
combinations of one fish & one portion of chips).  Ordering "two fish
suppers" as Alex does in Scotland won't work in most of England and is also
the subject of humorous comment on the internet.  Jennifer suggests that I
should ask for "two orders of fish & chips", but in my English a food order
is something more inclusive, e.g. it's possible to talk about or even ask
for "two orders of fish & chips twice", referring say to my order and
someone else's.  Still, I may be wrong, so I'm now waiting for my
health-conscious wife's permission to rigorously test this and other
hypotheses in a carefully selected sample of fish & chip shops, ethnic
take-aways and fast food restaurants.

Martin

Dr. Martin T. Walsh
Department of Social Anthropology
University of Cambridge


----- Original Message -----
From: "GABRIELLA MODAN" <modan.1 at osu.edu>
To: "Martin Walsh" <kisutu at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y


> Thanks for the clarification -- interesting that you
> can't do it for countable items. Is there any item
> like fish and chips which comes with a non-countable
> and a countable? The American equivalent would be
> burgers and fries -- could you say "burger and
> chips, twice"? In the US we would say "two orders of
> fish and chips", but now I'm wondering how "2
> burgers and fries" would be interpreted.
>
> best,
>
> Galey
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin Walsh <kisutu at hotmail.com>
> Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:12 pm
> Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
>
>> Gabriella,
>>
>> I can only think of asking for "fish & chips"
> twice in that way
>> (certainly
>> not a sausage or other singular noun).  It seems
> to be widespread
>> working
>> class (in particular) English.  If you google for
> "fish and chips
>> twice"
>> you'll find lots of examples, e.g. jokes along the
> lines of:
>>
>> [1] A tourist walked into a fish and chip shop in
> Ireland. "I'll
>> have fish
>> and chips twice," he orders. "Sure, I heard you
> the first time,"
>> came the
>> reply.
>>
>> or complaints by British expats:
>>
>> [2]
>> I seem to be having problems ordering "Fish and
> Chips Twice".
>> I've tried:
>> Fish and chips twice.
>> Two lots of fish and chips.
>> Two separate fish and chips.
>> Fish and chips for two.
>> ...
>> and various other combinations. Each time I get 2
> fish and 1
>> (minimum)
>> chips.
>> Anyone know the right combination of words?
>> Cheers
>> Al
>>
>> or miscellaneous references like the following:
>>
>> [3] Margate is a sanctioned nowhere, a dumping
> ground for
>> immigrants,
>> runaways and inner-city scroungers. Barter is the
> favoured form of
>> commercial transaction. Temporary inhabitants,
> with no stake in
>> society, no
>> voice in civic debate, forget their native
> languages and struggle
>> with the
>> Esperanto of survivalism. Kids learn English by
> parroting "10
>> Benson and
>> Hedges" or "Fish and chips twice, please."
>>
>> plus the name of an album by a group called
> Beaucoup Fish:
>>
>> [4] Fish and chips twice please...
>>
>> One solution to my troubles may be to ask for "two
> portions of
>> fish & chips
>> please".  I'll try that next time.
>>
>> Martin Walsh
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "GABRIELLA MODAN" <modan.1 at osu.edu>
>> To: "Martin Walsh" <kisutu at hotmail.com>
>> Cc: "linganth-list" <linganth at cc.rochester.edu>;
> "Ronald Kephart"
>> <rkephart at unf.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
>>
>>
>> > Fish and chips twice -- is that a common British
> way of asking
>> for 2 of
>> > something? Are there regions in the US where
> people say that?
>> I've never
>> > heard it before.
>> >
>> > Galey Modan
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Martin Walsh <kisutu at hotmail.com>
>> > Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 2:56 pm
>> > Subject: Re: [Linganth] Substitute x for y
>> >
>> >> I sympathise with Ronald's wife because I too
> get 'substitute'
>> >> muddled,
>> >> thinking that I can just substitute it for
> (with?) 'exchange'.
>> >> But then I
>> >> also have trouble making myself understood when
> I go to our local
>> >> Chinese
>> >> take-away and ask for fish and chips twice, I
> mean fish and chips
>> >> two times,
>> >> two fish and chips, two fish and two chips, two
> of everything, oh
>> >> yes and a
>> >> pot of curry sauce, no, only one of those...
>> >>
>> >> Martin Walsh
>> >> Cambridge, England
>> >>
>>
>
>