[Lingtyp] Query: syllable-reversing ludlings

David Gil gil at shh.mpg.de
Mon May 18 06:00:19 EDT 2020


Dear Eric,

Thanks, this is very useful, albeit in a negative kind of way, as it 
appears to refute my original hunch: whereas Zenzontepec Chatino 
exhibits the (b) 123 > 231 pattern of Papuan Malay, its final syllable 
prominence resembles that of Riau Indonesian which exhibits the (a) 123 
 > 312 pattern.  Thereby suggesting that there's no obvious correlation 
between the choice between (a) and (b) patterns on the one hand, and the 
languages' stress patterns on the other.

But I'd still really appreciate more data from other languages, to see 
if any other correlation emerges, or whether the choice between (a) and 
(b) patterns is just random.

Best,

David


On 17/05/2020 21:25, Eric Campbell wrote:
> Dear David,
>
> The nchakui’ tsū’ ntīlú ‘speaking backwards’ play language of 
> Zenzontepec Chatino (Otomanguean) displays pattern (b) 123 > 231, and 
> sheds light on moraicity, the representation of tone, and other 
> questions.
>
>     kutunu → tūnúku  ‘large crayfish’
>     kūnáɁa → náɁaku  ‘woman’
>     kʷilīʃí → lʲīʃíkʷi  ‘butterfly’
>     kilituɁ → lʲītʲúɁki  ‘navel of’
>     kʷitīɁjú → tʲīɁjúkʷi  ‘lightning
>
>
> The language doesn’t have lexical stress, but the final syllable is 
> the most prominent syllable of the phonological word, meaning, in this 
> case, it (i) displays the most phonological contrasts (contrastive V 
> nasality, V length, coda glottal stop) and (ii) tends to be the 
> syllable with greatest duration. This was just published open access 
> last month in PD&A: https://phondata.org/index.php/pda/issue/view/5
>
> Best regards,
>
> Eric Campbell
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:27 AM Hiroto Uchihara <uchihara at buffalo.edu 
> <mailto:uchihara at buffalo.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Dear David,
>
>     According to the Ito et al. (1996), fu.men 'score' > men.fu,
>     mo.dan 'modern' > dan.mo, ya.súi 'cheap' > sui.ya; here, we could
>     say that the syllables are reversed or the same 123 > 231
>     reversing is being applied. With longer words, they report
>     ba.tsu.gun 'fantastic' > gun.ba.tsu, ki.chí.gai 'crazy' >
>     gai.ki.chi, koo.híi 'coffee' > hii.koo so maybe 123..X >
>     (X-1)(X)123.. with moraic counting is more general.  They also
>     report cases of 123 > 321 (with moraic counting), such as pán.tsu
>     ~ pan.tsu 'pants' > tsun.pa <http://tsun.pa>, tái.pu 'type' > pui.ta.
>
>     Hiroto
>
>     El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:59, David Gil
>     (gil at shh.mpg.de <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>) escribió:
>
>         Dear Hiroto,
>
>         Thanks, this is very helpful. I'm curious about one thing
>         though.  In the examples that you cited, the mora happens to
>         correspond to a syllable, so it is not possible to tell
>         whether it is moras or syllables that are being reversed.  But
>         there are lots of other words where the mora is less than a
>         complete syllable — what happens in such words?
>
>         Best wishes,
>
>         David
>
>
>         On 17/05/2020 19:35, Hiroto Uchihara wrote:
>>         Dear David,
>>
>>         Japanese Zuu-jaa go does this, although I don't use this
>>         ludling so I don't have an intuition (I believe it became
>>         obsolete in the 90's). It looks like tri-moraic words follow
>>         the pattern 123 > 231 (Ito, Kitagawa & Mester 1996), such as
>>         pi.a.no <http://pi.a.no> 'piano' > ya.no.pi, shi.ka.ke
>>         <http://shi.ka.ke> 'trick' > ka.ke.shi, ma.zú.i 'tastes bad'
>>         > zu.i.ma <http://zu.i.ma>, ku.su.ri 'drug' > su.ri.ku. It
>>         appears that the location of the pitch accent doesn't matter:
>>         'tastes bad' have accent on the penultimate mora while others
>>         are unaccented.
>>
>>         I hope this helps.
>>
>>         Reference:
>>         Ito, Junko, Yoshihisa Kitagawa & Armin Mester. 1996. Prosodic
>>         faithfulness and correspondence: evidence from Japanese
>>         argot. Journal of East Asian Linguistics 5.3: 217-294.
>>
>>         Hiroto
>>
>>         El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:03, David Gil
>>         (gil at shh.mpg.de <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>) escribió:
>>
>>             Dear all,
>>
>>             Ludlings (aka play languages or secret languages) are
>>             often constructed by reversing the order of syllables in
>>             a word.Using numerals to denote syllables, 12 > 21.But
>>             what happens when there are three (or more) syllables in
>>             the word?For tri-syllabic words, the two most common
>>             outcomes are
>>
>>             (a) 123 > 312
>>
>>             (b) 123 > 231
>>
>>             The Riau Indonesian ludling I have written about has the
>>             (a) pattern, eg. /bahasa > sabaha/. But a friend of mine
>>             in Papua has recently started writing to me in a ludling
>>             using the (b) pattern, e.g. /bahasa > hasaba/.Which got
>>             me curious.According to Wikipedia, the French ludling
>>             /verlan/ may use either option, e.g. /cigarette/ >
>>             /restiga/ or /garetsi/.
>>
>>             I would appreciate any information you might be able to
>>             provide with regard to syllable-reversing ludlings of
>>             this kind that you might be familiar with in other
>>             languages.Specifically, I would like to know:
>>
>>             (1) which pattern is followed in tri-syllabic words: (a),
>>             (b), or perhaps other?
>>
>>             (2) what is the location of word-stress in the language?
>>
>>             The motivation behind the second question is that I have
>>             a hunch that the difference between the ludlings in
>>             closely related Riau Indonesian and Papuan Malay might be
>>             due to their different stress patterns — a hypothesis
>>             that is easily tested by looking at a handful of other
>>             languages.
>>
>>             Thanks,
>>
>>             David
>>
>>             -- 
>>             David Gil
>>               
>>             Senior Scientist (Associate)
>>             Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>>             Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>>             Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>>               
>>             Email:gil at shh.mpg.de  <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
>>             Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
>>             Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Lingtyp mailing list
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>>             <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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>>
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         Dr. Hiroto Uchihara
>>         https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0
>>         Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
>>         Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
>>         Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>         Circuito Mario de la Cueva
>>         Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.
>>         Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489
>>         Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223
>
>         -- 
>         David Gil
>           
>         Senior Scientist (Associate)
>         Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>         Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>         Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>           
>         Email:gil at shh.mpg.de  <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
>         Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
>         Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Dr. Hiroto Uchihara
>     https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0
>     Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
>     Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
>     Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>     Circuito Mario de la Cueva
>     Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.
>     Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489
>     Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223
>     _______________________________________________
>     Lingtyp mailing list
>     Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>     <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>     http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
>
> -- 
> *Eric W. Campbell*
>
> Assistant Professor of Linguistics
> Director of Undergraduate Studies, Linguistics
> Faculty in Residence, San Joaquin and Sierra Madre Villages
> Academic Council, American Indian and Indigenous Collective
>
> Department of Linguistics
> South Hall 3432
> University of California, Santa Barbara
> Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3100
>
> Zoom Room:
> https://ucsb.zoom.us/my/eric.campbell
>
>
-- 
David Gil
  
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
  
Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091

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