7.216, Sum: Something for nothing

Sat Feb 10 15:18:35 UTC 1996

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LINGUIST List:  Vol-7-216. Sat Feb 10 1996. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines:  183

Subject: 7.216, Sum: Something for nothing

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            Helen Dry: Eastern Michigan U. <hdry at emunix.emich.edu> (On Leave)
            T. Daniel Seely: Eastern Michigan U. <dseely at emunix.emich.edu>

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---------------------------------Directory-----------------------------------
1)
Date:  Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:54:16 +0200
From:  hiro-t at ias.tokushima-u.ac.jp
Subject:  You cannot get something for nothing.

---------------------------------Messages------------------------------------
1)
Date:  Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:54:16 +0200
From:  hiro-t at ias.tokushima-u.ac.jp
Subject:  You cannot get something for nothing.

Dear Linguists,
   I posted a query a few weeks ago. To my surprise, I received as many
as 59 responses. All of the did eagerly answer my student's naive
question. I wish to thank to all of you who kindly e-mailed me. The
followings are my original query and the respondants, and of course my
summary.

My posting:
>   I had a question from one of my students about the proverb
>"You cannot get something for nothing." The question has three parts.
>
>
>(i) Is this proverb frequently used in US and England? Have you ever
>heard or used it?
>
>(ii) Is this proverb's real meaning "Getting something for nothing
>is the most expensive"?
>
>(iii) Does this proverb have a semantic structure "It is NOT that we can
>get something for nothing"?
>
>I am looking forward to your comment, which I hope is an easy explanation.
>Please e-mail me directly. I will post a summary soon. Thanks in advance.
>

The contributors:
"Mr. Magoo" <ddalton at campus.gda.itesm.mx>
Chuah Choy Kim <kimc at cssun.cs.usm.my>
mlauner at garnet.acns.fsu.edu (Michael K. Launer)
"Prof. Tracey Leffin-Hedrick" <LEFFIN at bach.cuw.edu>
"David Weiss" <david_weiss at gbinc.com>
Michael Wescoat <wescoat at lisa.lang.osaka-u.ac.jp>
George Wilson <gwilson at mrj.com>
Bowen Hui <bhui at cs.ubc.ca>
David Harris <dharris at las-inc.com>
ewb2 at cornell.edu (E. Wayles Browne)
BPEARSON at umiami.ir.miami.edu$B!J(JBarbara Pearson$B!K(J
Rebecca Larche Moreton <mlrlm at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
"David Weiss" <david_weiss at gbinc.com>
tomadams at sas.upenn.edu (Thomas W. Adams)
"Andrew S Mccullough" <mccullo4 at pilot.msu.edu>
bud at logos-usa.com (Budd Scott)
david at vol.it
"D.A. Good" <dg25 at cus.cam.ac.uk>
mshapley at ucla.edu (ml shapley)
Peter Daniels <pdaniels at press-gopher.uchicago.edu>
ESLTEACHER <teacher at amanda.dorsai.org>
Patrick Griffiths <griffith at kula.usp.ac.fj>
ellgupta at leonis.nus.sg (Anthea Fraser Gupta)
John Lawler <jlawler at umich.edu>
lisa Cunningham <dcarroll at campus.gda.itesm.mx>
Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford at s1.csuhayward.edu>
Paula Miller Jacobson <paulaj at mail.erols.com>
MADELINE MAXWELL <MMAXWELL at utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>
Deborah Milam Berkley <dberkley at babel.ling.nwu.edu>
Anonymous
Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU
David Baker <david at miro.demon.co.uk>
dasher at netcom.com (Anton Sherwood)
a-brawn at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (anna livia)
"Jack Wiedrick" <WIED6480 at VARNEY.IDBSU.EDU>
pennock at uv.es(Barry Pennock)
Deborah Yeager <kyeager at mailhost.nmt.edu>
aa197 at freenet.akron.oh.us (Calmer Clifford)
holt at scsu.ctstateu.edu (Dr. Dennis G.Holt)
russell at ukraine.corp.mot.com (Dale Russell)
B R Maylor <B.R.Maylor at durham.ac.uk>
Tom Larsen <LARSEN at BNAMF.BLACKWELL.COM>
Gregory Roberts <robertsg at gusun.acc.georgetown.edu>
David Moore <dvdmoore at dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
"Marge Jackman" <MJAC at mclean1.nl.edu>
Robert Lyle Good <rgood at students.uiuc.edu>
Joseph F Foster <fosterjf at ucunix.san.uc.edu>
Peter Gingiss <peterg at Bayou.UH.EDU>
"DAVID WHARTON" <WHARTOND at FAGAN.UNCG.EDU>
will at franklin.com (Will Dowling)
"Marie Egan" <EGAN at black.cla.sc.edu>
JPKIRCHNER at aol.com(James Kirchner)
David Tugwell <davidt at cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Patrick Juola <patrick.juola at psy.ox.ac.uk>
"DARA CONNOLLY MECH.ENG.PG" <DCONN at ollamh.ucd.ie>
T.Bloor at aston.ac.uk (Thomas Bloor)
"Larry Trask" <larryt at cogs.susx.ac.uk>
"Philip L. Peterson" <plpeters at mailbox.syr.edu>
"Donald F. Pendergast" <dpenderg at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>
donohue at ucla.edu (Cathryn Donohue)
oberman at tmxmelb.mhs.oz.au (Leslie Oberman)
goolsby at rain.org ( =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9?= Goolsby)
James Warren Cornish <jwc13 at csufresno.edu>
M J Hardman <afn11122 at afn.org>

 As regards with my query (i), all of the respondants answered that this
expression is fequently used in the US and the UK, although some say it
is questionable that we should call this expression as proverb, instead
we may as well call it "saying". I don't have any clue to solve this
problem.

   To (ii), most peole consider my paraphrase is wrong. My paraphrase,
"Getting something for nothing is the most expensive," corresponds to a
Japanese proverb,
             "YASUMONO        GAI     NO             ZENI  USHINAI"
             "cheap-thing-OBJ buy-NOM of(equals)-TOP money lose-NOM"
as was suggested by my supervisor in my graduate school days, which
literally means, "If you buy a cheap thing, you will lose your money."
  This expression is simliar to or alomst the same as "There is no such
thing as a free lunch.", often abbreviated as TINSTAAFL or TANSTAAFL
from "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"(Tracey Leffin-Hedrick
and Patrick Juola). Most interestingly, some people read it literally
like Leslie Oberman "if you require money, you have to work at a job. No
one will give you anything unless you pay for it." and the others read
it figuratiely or implicationally like Anna Livia's re-wording, "Even
when someone seems to be offering you something without asking anything
in return (i.e. giving you something for nothing) it always turns out
that they want you to do something for them." These are subtle diffe-
rences, but understanding a simple expression like this proverb/saying
or whatever you call it requires a process from literal to figurative/
implicational. Simlilar expressions include "No pain, no gain.", "You
get what you pay for.", and Patrick Griffiths and Barry Pennock cite
from the Yorkshire Dialect form, "You don't get owt for nowt.  (OWT =
'something/anything'; NOWT = 'nothing').", or "See all, hear all, say
nowt (nothing)", "Eat all, sup (drink) all, pay nowt.", and "if you ever
do owt for nowt, do it for yourself.", which are a cynical but
realistic way of looking at things in Yorkshire(Barry Pennock).  Other
expressions are "There ain't no free lunch", "You get what you pay for."
and "There is no santa claus.", "Everything has a price.", and "Nothing
is free.", etc.

 As regards with (iii), some peole say that most English speakers would
not consider this expression a double negative. "Nothing" is only
incorporated into a prepositional phrase, i.e., phrase/word negation as
opposed to sentence negation, and the negation in "cannot" doesn't
extend to/have scope over the "nothing". The term "double negation"
might have caused a confusion. I used it just because there are two
negatives in one sentence. This may as well be called a partial negation.
Or as John Lawler writes, the semantic(or logical) structure of the
sentence in question may be something like:
               (Ax) (NOT (Ey) (POSSIBLE (FREE y [for] x)))
                "For every x, there does NOT exist y which can be FREE"
                          (My translation. Am I right, Dr. Lawler?).
I presume that this logical and semantic structure shows the sentence is
 doubly negated.

   Thank you very much to all those who respond immediately. Your
answers and comments (if brief) are all of great help to my students
and me. Please allow me if I fail to write your name on the list.

Best wishes,

Hiroaki Tanaka, Tokushima University, Japan
E-mail: hiro-t at ias.tokushima-u.ac.jp
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