LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 01.DEC.1999 (02) [E/LS]

Thu Dec 2 00:26:22 UTC 1999

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From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject:  consonnant shifts

Is there some phonetic law for a couple of consonnant shifts occuring in
East Low Franconian?

1. The __w__ to __g__ shift:

In my West Limburgian we say "__Goensdog__" for "__Woensdag__".
I found similarely, 100 km to the North-East, "__Guenseg__" in Eicker:
"Straelener Mundart. Ein niederrheinisches Wörterbuch", Straelen, 1978

An other example "Bow" in my West Limburgian (Vliermaal), "Boo" in
Tüngerländisch Limburgian for "Waar" in Dutch and "Wo" in German.

2. The __m__ to __b_ shift.

from a limerick in "bilisium", december 1999 (in Limburgian from Bilzen):
     ...zègge ve èn 't goed milzers nau "be-" ofwaol "me-"sjiete?
I'm not quoting the whole limerick, since it contains intential errors, for
"milzers" read "bilzers".

But fact is:
    "__beschuiten__" in Dutch becomes, im my Limburgian version
"__mesjuute__"

Regards,
Roger

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From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject:  German Low Saxon and Netherlands Low Saxon

This evening, on the way home, I stopped downtown Roermond, at a second hand
bookshop, and I found a book in "Netherlands Low Saxon", that claims to be a
translation from "German Low Saxon". I do not have the German Low Saxon
original, but if somebody has, he can add the German Low Saxon original
version to the excerpt below for one can see how different these variants
really are (or were).

The book:
Siebo Siebels' zwoare gaank (Het huus zonder locht),
naar het Duitsch door J. Poortman
Uitgeverij; De Erven J. J. Tijl te Zwolle,
not dated; the preface is dated Nov. '31
Clothbound, still in a very good shape, except for the pages being yellowed,
135 pp.( I paid Hfl 25, about 12 USD)

>From the "Veurwoord" (quote):
Der hef een tied ewest, det de taal van de Saksiese streken uut oes laand as
"Oaverlaands" geschreven en edrokt wörde. Det die taal elèzen wörde tut wied
in Duutsland toe. Det Noord- en Zuud-Duutsers, die wat te vertellen harren
an de bewoners van oes laand, juust gebruuk maakten van det "Oaverlaands".
Det kun in de dage, toe de taal zoveule minder verschillen har mit now. Mar
toch wel allent, umdet er zoveule gelieke was.
En nog altied kunt de mèènsen uut 't Oosten van oes laand, uut Twente,
Drente en Grönningen heur wied oaver de grèènze redden mit heur "plat", heur
dialect.
... Toe dan ook Fritz Gerhard Lottmann's boek "__Dat Hus sünner Lücht__",
bij duzenden verkocht wörde, hebbik joaren elene doar een "vertaling", een
"oaverzetting" van emaakt, umdetter zoveule in stunt, det krek was as bij
oes....

A sample from the translation, p. 47 from the body of the story "Hilbert
braant hum" (quote):
Toen Swaantien de beide manlu an heurde komen, kwamp se uut de keuken en
vruchte:
"Hebbik nog wat te doen? Ik wol geern hen bedde, umdak de leste tied zo möj
en sloaperig bin. Det mut de heren miej mar niet kwoad of nemen, want ik
wörre al een dag older"
"Neen, Swaantien, der is niks meer te doen. Wiej hebt nog wat te proten en
de sloapkamer is veur menaar niet?"
"Ja alles is op regel."
"Now dan wow nog een paar flesse bier, mar die kan Pia wel èven halen."
"Ja, det kan ze wel. Mar woar huseert det manj. Ze wol nog bonen plokken,
mar woar blif ze now weer!"

Regards,
Roger

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject:  Etymology

Dear Roger,

You wrote:

> This evening, on the way home, I stopped downtown Roermond, at a second hand

> bookshop, and I found a book in "Netherlands Low Saxon", that claims to be a

> translation from "German Low Saxon". I do not have the German Low Saxon
> original, but if somebody has, he can add the German Low Saxon original
> version to the excerpt below for one can see how different these variants
> really are (or were).

Very interesting!!!

Of course, this would be comparing only *two* varieties: the dialect in which
the original was written, and the dialect of the translator.  Let's bear in
mind that in Low Saxon we are dealing with a dialect *continuum* -- yes, with
a bit of a "jump" or "jolt" on the Netherlands-German border due to long-time
Neerlandization vs Germanization -- but a continuum it is nevertheless.

We don't seem to know in which Low Saxon dialect of Germany the original is.
If it is in an East Frisian variety, then it is fairly close to the North
Saxon dialects of the Netherlands.  If it is in a Westphalian variety, then it
is more closely related to the southern Saxon dialects of the Netherlands.
The farther east the dialect is or used to be used  -- and I include
Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low Saxon) and other dialects of what are now Poland
and Russia  -- the less mutually intelligible it is with the dialects of the
Netherlands.  (We are talking about quite a geographic distance as far as
European dialectology goes.)  Of course, the diverging orthographic schools
don't exactly help matters.  They tend to "distort" the picture in that they
make a dialect from across the border look more alien than it really is.

We have one bit of information: the title _Dat Hus sünner Lücht_ (> Dutch-type
spelling _Dat hoes zünner lücht_ or _Dat hoes zunner lucht_)  'The House
without Light'.  This seems to point to the farwestern North Saxon dialect
area (Ollenborg/Oldenburg or Eastern Friesland), thus fairly close to the
border with the Northern Netherlands.  An indicator is the use of _sünner_ for
'without' (= _aan_ ~ _ahn_ ~ _oon_ ~ _ohn_ farther east).  This is not to say
that _sünner_ ~ _sünder_ *never* occurs as 'without' elsewhere, only that it
predominates in the west.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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