LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 02.DEC.1999 (01) [E/LS]

Thu Dec 2 15:46:10 UTC 1999

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.1999 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Reuben Epp [repp at silk.net]
Subject:  LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 01.DEC.1999 (02) [E/LS]

>From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
>Subject:  German Low Saxon and Netherlands Low Saxon
>
>This evening, on the way home, I stopped downtown Roermond, at a second
hand
>bookshop, and I found a book in "Netherlands Low Saxon", that claims to be
a
>translation from "German Low Saxon". I do not have the German Low Saxon
>original, but if somebody has, he can add the German Low Saxon original
>version to the excerpt below for one can see how different these variants
>really are (or were).
>
>The book:
>Siebo Siebels' zwoare gaank (Het huus zonder locht),
>naar het Duitsch door J. Poortman
>Uitgeverij; De Erven J. J. Tijl te Zwolle,
>not dated; the preface is dated Nov. '31
>Clothbound, still in a very good shape, except for the pages being
yellowed,
>135 pp.( I paid Hfl 25, about 12 USD)
>
>>From the "Veurwoord" (quote):
>Der hef een tied ewest, det de taal van de Saksiese streken uut oes laand
as
>"Oaverlaands" geschreven en edrokt wörde. Det die taal elèzen wörde tut
wied
>in Duutsland toe. Det Noord- en Zuud-Duutsers, die wat te vertellen harren
>an de bewoners van oes laand, juust gebruuk maakten van det "Oaverlaands".
>Det kun in de dage, toe de taal zoveule minder verschillen har mit now. Mar
>toch wel allent, umdet er zoveule gelieke was.
>En nog altied kunt de mèènsen uut 't Oosten van oes laand, uut Twente,
>Drente en Grönningen heur wied oaver de grèènze redden mit heur "plat",
heur
>dialect.
>... Toe dan ook Fritz Gerhard Lottmann's boek "__Dat Hus sünner Lücht__",
>bij duzenden verkocht wörde, hebbik joaren elene doar een "vertaling", een
>"oaverzetting" van emaakt, umdetter zoveule in stunt, det krek was as bij
>oes....
>
>A sample from the translation, p. 47 from the body of the story "Hilbert
>braant hum" (quote):
>Toen Swaantien de beide manlu an heurde komen, kwamp se uut de keuken en
>vruchte:
>"Hebbik nog wat te doen? Ik wol geern hen bedde, umdak de leste tied zo möj
>en sloaperig bin. Det mut de heren miej mar niet kwoad of nemen, want ik
>wörre al een dag older"
>"Neen, Swaantien, der is niks meer te doen. Wiej hebt nog wat te proten en
>de sloapkamer is veur menaar niet?"
>"Ja alles is op regel."
>"Now dan wow nog een paar flesse bier, mar die kan Pia wel èven halen."
>"Ja, det kan ze wel. Mar woar huseert det manj. Ze wol nog bonen plokken,
>mar woar blif ze now weer!"
>
>Regards,
>Roger
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
>Subject:  Etymology
>
>Dear Roger,
>
>You wrote:
>
>> This evening, on the way home, I stopped downtown Roermond, at a second
hand
>
>> bookshop, and I found a book in "Netherlands Low Saxon", that claims to
be a
>
>> translation from "German Low Saxon". I do not have the German Low Saxon
>> original, but if somebody has, he can add the German Low Saxon original
>> version to the excerpt below for one can see how different these variants
>> really are (or were).
>
>Very interesting!!!
>
>Of course, this would be comparing only *two* varieties: the dialect in
which
>the original was written, and the dialect of the translator.  Let's bear in
>mind that in Low Saxon we are dealing with a dialect *continuum* -- yes,
with
>a bit of a "jump" or "jolt" on the Netherlands-German border due to
long-time
>Neerlandization vs Germanization -- but a continuum it is nevertheless.
>
>We don't seem to know in which Low Saxon dialect of Germany the original
is.
>If it is in an East Frisian variety, then it is fairly close to the North
>Saxon dialects of the Netherlands.  If it is in a Westphalian variety, then
it
>is more closely related to the southern Saxon dialects of the Netherlands.
>The farther east the dialect is or used to be used  -- and I include
>Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low Saxon) and other dialects of what are now
Poland
>and Russia  -- the less mutually intelligible it is with the dialects of
the
>Netherlands.  (We are talking about quite a geographic distance as far as
>European dialectology goes.)  Of course, the diverging orthographic schools
>don't exactly help matters.  They tend to "distort" the picture in that
they
>make a dialect from across the border look more alien than it really is.
>
>We have one bit of information: the title _Dat Hus sünner Lücht_ (>
Dutch-type
>spelling _Dat hoes zünner lücht_ or _Dat hoes zunner lucht_)  'The House
>without Light'.  This seems to point to the farwestern North Saxon dialect
>area (Ollenborg/Oldenburg or Eastern Friesland), thus fairly close to the
>border with the Northern Netherlands.  An indicator is the use of _sünner_
for
>'without' (= _aan_ ~ _ahn_ ~ _oon_ ~ _ohn_ farther east).  This is not to
say
>that _sünner_ ~ _sünder_ *never* occurs as 'without' elsewhere, only that
it
>predominates in the west.
>
>Regards,
>
>Reinhard/Ron

Dear Lowlanders,

I have a 1971 reprint by Schuster Verlag in Leer of the 1920 second
edition of 'Dat Hus sünner Lücht,' authored by Fritz Gerhard Lottmann,
published by Verlag Richard Hermes of Hamburg. To me it sounds
East Frisian, but I'm not sure. It is in Gothic print. So here is the first
paragraph for your assessment:

        1. Kapitel

"Wenn wi as Jungs in uns Nabers Appelboom smeeten, un de Steen
vörbiflog in Nabers Ruden, war hei eigentlek nich hen sull; wenn wi
denn naderhand ganz gehörig versohlt wurren van de Nabers sülvst
 of van uns Vaders, denn säd wi: "Dat harr wi uns anners docht!"

Cheers!

Reuben

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject:  Language varieties

Dear Reuben,

Thank you very much for the information above.  It has been very helpful
indeed.  Yes, the dialect does appear to belong to the Ollenborg/Oldenburg
sub-group of North Saxon.  Perhaps it is safer to say that it is transitional
between North Saxon of the greater Ollenborg/Oldenburg area and that of
Eastern Friesland.

_Ruud_ (pl. _Ruden_) 'window pane' predominates in the west; it tends to be
_(Finster-)Schiev'_ etc. elsewhere.

_eigentlek_: the _-lek_, East Frisian _-elk_, tends to be western; elsewhere
_-lich_ etc.

_na(h)derhand_ 'afterwards' tends to be associated with East Frisian Low
Saxon; elsewhere _achterher_ ~ _achterna_ ~ _achterto_ ~ _achterran_.

_of_ 'or' is farwestern; elsewhere _oder_ ~ or_.

_van_ 'from', 'of' used to be used in most dialects but, perhaps under German
influence, has been replaced by _vun_ ~ _von_ in many non-western dialects.

Most compelling evidence is the author's identity: Fritz Lottmann, who lives
in Rastede, which is situated about 60 km (about 37 miles) northwest of Bremen
and about 10 km (about 6 miles) north of Ollenborg/Oldenburg.  Of course, we
do not know if this is where he grew up and learned the language, but there
are indications that his dialect belongs to the general area.

Thanks again.

Now it would be nice to know in which dialect on the Netherlands side the
translation is.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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