LL-L: "Etymology" [D/E/F/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 04.JUN.1999 (02)
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sassisch at geocities.com
Fri Jun 4 15:41:06 UTC 1999
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L O W L A N D S - L * 04.JUN.1999 (02) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rharmsen at knoware.nl>
Subject: Etymology
R. F. Hahn <sassisch at geocities.com>
>Low Saxon (Low German):
>sodannig ~ sodennig 'so', 'in such a fashion' (< so 'so') [
Ook in het Nederlands: zodanig
>wodannig ~ wodennig 'how', 'in what fashion' (< wo 'how')
Zo'n woord hebben we niet in het Nederlands, dus geen *waardanig*?
Wel "hoedanig" en "hoedanigheid" (=quality).
Misschien ook verband met "onderdanen" (citizens, esp. in a kingdom;
maar ook: (jocular): legs, feet)?
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://utopia.knoware.nl/~rharmsen/
----------
From: Jan Ter Ellen <Jan at spherical-group.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology
Ron/Reinhard asked:
> I am wondering about the origin of what appears to be an adverbial
> morpheme
> *_-dan_. You seem to find it in the following words, among others:
>
> --
> Afrikaans:
> vandaan 'from' (< van 'from')
>
> Dutch:
> vandaan 'from' (< van 'from')
>
> Low Saxon (Low German):
> sodannig ~ sodennig 'so', 'in such a fashion' (< so 'so') [
> wodannig ~ wodennig 'how', 'in what fashion' (< wo 'how')
>
1) Nederlands
Ik betwijfel dat "daan" in "vandaan" en in "zodanig" een
gemeenschappelijke stam hebben. "zodanig" en het oudere "dusdanig" zijn
naar mijn mening direct afgeleid van het werkwoord "doen".
"daan" in "vandaan" daarentegen, heeft verwantschap met het
oud-duitse _danana_ en _dannen_ . Ook met het angelsaksische _danan_ ,
nog terug te vinden in oud-engels " thenne" en "thence" en het
oud-friese "thana".
"daan" staat tot "daar" als "heen" staat tot "hier" en de
oudere equivalenten "her" en "der"
2) English
I doubt that "daan" in "vandaan" (from) and in "zodanig" (in
such a fashion) have any common roots.
"zodanig" (in such a fashion) and its older form "dusdanig" are
in my opinion directly related to the verb "doen" (to do).
On the other hand, "daan" in "vandaan" is related to the
old-german _danana_ and _dannen_, as well as with de Anglo-Saxon
_danan_, which is the root of old-english "thenne" and "thence" and the
Old Frisian "thana".
"daan" relates to "daar" as "heen" does to ""hier" (and its
older equivalents "her" and "der")
Jan ter Ellen
----------
From: Brandsma <brandsma at twi.tudelft.nl>
Subject: Etymology
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at geocities.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
Hoi Ron,
It giet hjir om nei alle gedachten 3 ferskillende foarmen. Oer de krekte
etymologyen moat ik hjir noch wat dizenich we^ze, om't ik myn wurdboeken
net by de ha^n haw. Yn it Nederla^nsk en it Frysk wurde se noch u'tinoar
holden:
>I am wondering about the origin of what appears to be an adverbial morpheme
>*_-dan_. You seem to find it in the following words, among others:
>
>--
>Afrikaans:
>vandaan 'from' (< van 'from')
>
>Dutch:
>vandaan 'from' (< van 'from')
Dit is Frysk (Westerlauwers) "fandinne", allinnich noch bru^kt, neffens my,
yn 'e u'tdrukking _de^rfandinne_ ="that's why". Normaal wurdt hjir
nammentlik yn it Frysk _wei_ bru^kt, cf.:
Nl: Waar kom je vandaan?
Fr: We^r komst wei?
>Low Saxon (Low German):
>sodannig ~ sodennig 'so', 'in such a fashion' (< so 'so') [
>wodannig ~ wodennig 'how', 'in what fashion' (< wo 'how')
>
Frysk: sadanich, hoedanich
Nederla^nsk: zodanig, hoedanig.
"danich" / "danig" kin ek as los wurd foarkomme, en ik tocht dat it yn it
Nederla^nsk as Frysk wurd sjoen waard, mar alheel wis bin ik de^r net fan.
As los wurd is it fersterkjend:
Nl: Hij heeft zich danig geweerd. (he has "battled" very well)
Fr: Hy hat him danich te war set.
>Danish:
>sådan 'so', 'in such a fashion' (< så 'so')
>hvordan 'how', 'in what fashion' (< *hvor 'how'; cf. Swedish _hur_ 'how')
>
>Norwegian (Bokmål, Dano-Norwegian):
>sådan 'so', 'in such a fashion' (< så 'so')
>hvordan 'how', 'in what fashion' (< *hvor 'how'; cf. Swedish _hur_ 'how')
>
>Swedish:
>sådan 'so', 'in such a fashion' (< så 'so')
Ik tink dat dit, lykas'tsto letter ek al seist, besibbe is oan
Nl zodoende
Fr sadwaande
u't: zo/sa + doen/dwaan (=to do), dus letterlik: "so doing", "in doing it
like that". Dit wurdt as in soarte fan ekstra u'tlizzend (explanatory) wurd
bru^kt:
It reinde, sadwaande wie ik wat de lette kant neist:
"it was raining, so (because of that) I was a little late".
>I have no idea if these really go back to the same origin, but I consider it
>possible.
>
>Low Franconian _-daan_ could be a case of (older) vowel lengthening, as
also in
Ik tink dat dit rekking yn iepen wurdlid is (open syllable lengthening), as
yn Nederla^nsk "dag - dagen" esfh.
Oan de Fryske foarm kinst de a^lde u'tgong -e noch sjen.
Ik soe dus u'tgean fan *-dana.
Sokke foarmen moatte dan ek yn dialekten te finen we^ze, tinkt my. Twintsk
(the Twente Low Saxon dialect) liket my in gaadlike kandidaat ta.
(en it Nederla^nsk hat ek in lang lu^d en net dit proses datsto beskriuwst.)
>Afrikaans/Dutch _vandaan_ may well be related to obsolete German _vondannen_
>'away'.
>
Liket my ek.
>Any comments or insights?
Dit wiene dan wer myn twa sinten foar hjoed...
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Reinhard/Ron
>
Groetnis,
Henno
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at geocities.com>
Subject: Etymology
[Low Saxon (Low German)]
Moin, leive luyd'!
Ik dank foer de intressanten antern mit juem er euvertuygenen argumenten dei
miin anter baven foeran-gaat.
Ruud schreev:
> >wodannig ~ wodennig 'how', 'in what fashion' (< wo 'how')
>
> Zo'n woord hebben we niet in het Nederlands, dus geen *waardanig*?
Dat schul den *_hoedanig_ wesen, Ruud. Neddersassisch "wou" ("wo") [voU]
beduydt _hoe_ up Nedderlandsch. Jaa, 'n barg luyd' segt up Neddersassisch
'wo(u)' [vo(U)] staats 'waar' ('waar', 'woor') [vQ:V] (uenner Duytsche
in-floyden?), un bii juem falt de twei woyrd' for _hoe_ un _waar_ daar wegen tou
houp, man annere dialekten hevt noch 'waar', un dat harmoneirt mit 'daar'
[dQ:V].
Henno schreev:
> "danich" / "danig" kin ek as los wurd foarkomme, en ik tocht dat it yn it
> Nederla^nsk as Frysk wurd sjoen waard, mar alheel wis bin ik de^r net fan.
> As los wurd is it fersterkjend:
>
> Nl: Hij heeft zich danig geweerd. (he has "battled" very well)
> Fr: Hy hat him danich te war set.
Dat givt dat in't Neddersassische ouk:
Hei het sik dannig/dennig weerd.
(He hett sik dannig/dannich/dennig wehrt.)
Hei het sik dannig/dennig tou weer sett.
(He hett sik dannig/dannich/dennig to Wehr sett.)
Hei het sik dannig/dennig ferdeffendeird.
(He hett sik dannig/dannich/dennig verdeffendeert.)
Kwantswiis' segd, Henno: Kanst nu wedder Freissche suenner-teikens bruken (t.b.
ê un û).
Fruendliche groyten,
Reinhard/Ron
[English]
Hi, folks!
Thanks for the interesting responses with their convincing arguments preceding
this response of mine.
Ruud wrote:
> >wodannig ~ wodennig 'how', 'in what fashion' (< wo 'how')
>
> Zo'n woord hebben we niet in het Nederlands, dus geen *waardanig*?
That ought to be *_hoedanig_, Ruud. Low Saxon _wou_ (_wo_) [voU] corresponds to
Dutch _hoe_ 'how'. Yes, many people say _wo(u)' [vo(U)] instead of _waar_
(_waar_, _woor_) [vQ:V] 'where' in Low Saxon (under German influence?), and in
their dialects the two words for 'how' and 'where' thus coincide, but other
dialects still have _waar_ 'where', and it harmonizes with _daar_ [dQ:V]
'there'.
Henno wrote:
> "danich" / "danig" kin ek as los wurd foarkomme, en ik tocht dat it yn it
> Nederla^nsk as Frysk wurd sjoen waard, mar alheel wis bin ik de^r net fan.
> As los wurd is it fersterkjend:
>
> Nl: Hij heeft zich danig geweerd. (he has "battled" very well)
> Fr: Hy hat him danich te war set.
This is also used in Low Saxon:
Hei het sik dannig/dennig weerd.
(He hett sik dannig/dannich/dennig wehrt.)
Hei het sik dannig/dennig tou weer sett.
(He hett sik dannig/dannich/dennig to Wehr sett.)
Hei het sik dannig/dennig ferdeffendeird.
(He hett sik dannig/dannich/dennig verdeffendeert.)
'He defended himself vigorously/ably.'
By the way, Henno, you may now use the special Frisian letters again (e.g., ê
and û).
Friendly regards
Reinhard/Ron
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