LL-L: "Orthography" [E/S] LOWLANDS-L, 04.JUN.1999 (04)

Fri Jun 4 23:22:48 UTC 1999

 ==========================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 04.JUN.1999 (04) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/~sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 ==========================================================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 ==========================================================================

From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at jmt.prestel.co.uk>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy wrate:
>
>Ye can see what they'r on aboot in volume 3?? A ken A'm in the praisence o a
>greater intellect nou!

I wis gaun ti say, "Whit wey? Are ye sittin nearhaund a dug?", but I better
no or I'll mibbie get flung aff the list - even efter ye caain me a 'nut'
thon time an aa!

>Says John:
>
>> Ay, weel, but mair nor ae type o Scots spellins is kenspeckle. The anes
>> abuin is maistly kenspeckle (e.g. EI is faur mair estaiblished in BEAT
>> words like _heid_ an _breid_ nor in BEET anes like _leet_ an
>> _speir_, whaur
>> the spellin _spier_ is gey common tae - e.g. in Scotscrieve); but thay
>> still hae science ahint thaim (diaphonemic, an nae mair nor ae phoneme ti
>> ae spellin), an sae the potential ti mak a inclusive spellin ti serr
>
>Nou that's a gey guid idea - A think A'll likely edit ma custom dictionar
>tae chynge tae thir kin o spellins (the first screive o the novel's juist
>feinished - A'm no hauf gled ye mentiont this afore A went an spellchecked
>it aa!). A niver thocht on combinin polyphonemes wi ony flexibility - A dout
>A'm startin tae see what ye'v been talkin aboot thir twaethree fernyear wi
>aa that ane-at-ane, ane-at-mony &c!

Weel, I wadna jump ti ower monie conclusions aboot it bein a guid idea
afore tryin it oot an seein whit the affcomes leuks like. Pairt o the
problem is kennin exactly whit words belangs whit types - Andy's field
again - tho I suppose the English spellin - EE, EA, A-E - wad be richt in
maist cases in cognate words. Aiblins the SND wad gie ye the auld Scots or
Anglo Saxon etymologies o ithers? For the differ atween BEAT an BEET types,
ye can maistly tell juist frae CSD (for practical ettles oniewey - an
that's whit we'r concerned wi efter an aa) cause the BEAT types is the anes
at haes variants in [i] an [e], whaurbyes the BEET types juist haes [i].

This wey o daein it wad at laest hae the advantage o bein mair like the
SNDA spellins in CESD an SSD - at I still wad threip it's feckless ti gang
agin ower faur.

The ironic thing aboot fashin ti dae awa wi mair nor ae grapheme ti the
phoneme (e.g. haein only EI for aa 'ee' soonds) in ae airt is at ye can end
up wi mair nor ae phoneme ti the ae grapheme (e.g. EI said [i] in 'neip' an
[e] in 'heid') in anither airt.

As for polyphonemes, that's ae thing i the LAS(3) at, for aa I understaund
aboot it, ye micht as weel speir at thon hypothetical dug! There seems ti
be ower few o thaim ti cover aa dialects. Scots dialects haes a maximum o
twelve vowel phonemes, no coontin diphthongs (J.C. Catford in Transactions
of the Philological Society, 1957 - tho I wad threip at Shetlandic haes
mair, aince ye coont in vowel lenth) an sae I dinna understaund whit wey
they can get awa wi haein a maximum o ten polyphonemes, cause this maun
mean at they hae ti pit mair nor ae phoneme disteinction under the ae
polyphoneme. In Shetlandic, for ensample, whit I wad spell as AE an E words
- e.g. _maet_ an _met_, at disna rhyme in Shetland nor in monie ither airts
as faur's I ken - is pitten thegither under the same polyphoneme, \E\. Nae
dout the'r some theoretical raeson for this, but I canna see whit practical
uiss it is ava.
>
>
>(As a aside - see thon word "springheid" that you & Andy uize - is that a
>actual Scots word or some kin o neologism? A wad A thocht the richt Scots
>wad be "burnheid" or "fountainheid". Onywey, it's appropriate eneuch in a
>orthographic discussion, seein hou A'v sprung ma heid a few times thinkin
>ower this subject!  :)

I dinna ken - I juist pickit it up aff Andy, tho I see it's no in CSD.
Houaniver, a spring is naither a burn nor a fountain, ken (speecially whan
it's a dance tuin or a bit o spiral metal!) Dinna ken gin the 'heid' is
Eng. 'head' or '-hood', tho - Andy? Think I'll gang ti bed wi ice on mine ane!

John M. Tait.

----------

From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at jmt.prestel.co.uk>
Subject: Orthography

Ian wrate:

>He also used the phrase "owre muckle" as in "A dinna ken owre muckle
>o sic things" - is that in use over there as well?

Certainly in Shetlandic it would be common - meaning not literally 'too
much' but in the sense of 'very much'. In a positive context, however, it
would mean 'too much', so:

'Dae'r ower muckle mylk i dis tae' - 'there's too much milk in this tea'.
'Dae'r no ower muckle wrang wi him' - 'there's not very much wrong with him.'

In the NE, such phrases do occur, though not so commonly, so I couldn't say
for certain if the connotations are the same. According to Sandy, the
'much' meaning of 'muckle' has died out in his dialect. In dialects where
it is still current, the difference between the 'much' meaning and the
'big' meaning depends largely on syntax; so in a recent Shetlandic story
the phrase 'shui's no ower muckle', meaning 'it's not too big' is (in spite
of being written by a native Shetlandic speaker) very unnatural - 'ower
muckle' always refers to quantity rather than size.

In Shetlandic idiom the common phrase 'ower weel' does not mean 'too well'
but 'all right' e.g.:

Foo is du? - How are you.
Och, ower weel, du kens. - Oh, all right, you know.

John M. Tait.

==================================END=======================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to
   be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 ========================================================================