LL-L: "Classification" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 29.JUN.1999 (08)

Tue Jun 29 19:07:47 UTC 1999

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUN.1999 (08) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Jason Childers [jchilders at mindex.com]
Subject: New Ethnologue Edition

Hi all!

I realize I've been lurking for a while, but I've been trying to clear out
my old computer and get things ready for my new one.  Now that I have my
new G3, things have been much more smoothly.  Especially since I was
working from a Performa 600.  (For all you PC users, imagine that you've
just gone from a 386 to a Pentium III.  There.  Now you know.)

Anyway, while cleaning up my bookmarks on Netscape, I found out that
Ethnologue has come out with a new edition: http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/.
Overall, it is a great reference, but the one big glaring error that I
found is that the site has gone back to having three different entries
about Low Saxon/Low German/Plautdietsch.  The former two are part of the
Germany entry, while Plautdietsch is said to be centered in Canada:

GERMAN, LOW (PLATTDEUTSCH) [GEP] Northern Germany. Indo-European, Germanic,
West, Continental, Low. Dialects: EAST LOW GERMAN (ALTMARK, BRANDENBURG,
MECKLENBURG, POMERANIA, PRIEGNITZ, UKERMARK), LOW FRANCONIAN (BERGISH,
GELDERSCH, LIMBURGISCH). 20 to 30 inherently unintelligible varieties
spoken in Germany alone. Low German refers to varieties in the lower Rhine
region, below a line from Aachen to Wittenberg, which did not experience
the second consonantal shift of the 8th and 9th centuries (J. Thiessen, U.
of Winnipeg 1976). Most speakers in Germany are bilingual in Standard
German. Bible 1478-1534. NT 1984. Bible portions 1475-1926.

SAXON, LOW (NEDDERSASSISCH, NIEDERSAECHSISCH, NEDERSAKSISCH) [SXN] An
estimated 10,000,000 understand it in Germany, but much few are native
speakers (1996 R. F. Hahn); 1,500,000 speakers in the Netherlands (1996 R.
F. Hahn). Northern Germany. The dialects listed are northwest, southwest,
south central, northeast, and southeast, respectively. Indo-European,
Germanic, West, Continental, Low. Dialects: NORTHERN LOW SAXON, WESTPHALIAN
(WESTFAELISCH, WESTFÄLISCH), EASTPHALIAN (OSTFAELISCH, OSTFÄLISCH),
MECKLENBURG-ANTERIOR POMERANIA (MECKLENBURGISCH-VORPOMMERSCH),
MARK-BRANDENBURG (MAERKISCH-BRANDENBURGISCH, MÄRKISCH-BRANDENBURGISCH). The
dialects listed are in Germany. The first three dialects listed are Western
Low Saxon, the other two are Eastern Low Saxon. Officially recognized as a
regional language in 8 states of Germany and in the northeastern provinces
of the Netherlands. Not intelligible to speakers of Standard German. Most
speakers in Germany are bilingual in Standard German. A direct descendant
of Old Saxon, related to English. Its modern forms have been largely
suppressed until recently, and have received much German, Dutch, or Frisian
influence, depending on the area. Dictionary. NT 1915.

PLAUTDIETSCH (LOW GERMAN, MENNONITE GERMAN, MENNONITEN PLATT) [GRN] 80,000
first language speakers and 20,000 second language speakers in Canada (1978
Kloss and McConnell); 70,000 in Mexico, 38,200 in Paraguay, 10,000 in USA,
18,000 in Bolivia, 5,955 in Brazil, 5,763 in Belize, 1,200 in Uruguay, 140
in Argentina, 100 in Costa Rica (1974 Minnich), 100,000 in Russia and
Kazakhstan (1986), 5,000 in Germany (1986). 306,000 total Plautdietsch
speakers, of whom 150,000 speak it habitually. Total German mother tongue
speakers in Canada 561,000 (J.A. Hawkins in B. Comrie 1988), without
distinguishing dialects or languages. Southern Canada; Ontario,
Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, British Columbia. Indo-European, Germanic,
West, Continental, Low. Not intelligible with many other Low German
languages, Standard German, Pennsylvania German or Hutterite German.
110,735 or more speakers in Latin America are mainly monolingual. 50% of
speakers in Canada speak Standard German and 95% speak English as second
language. 95% literate. Christian. NT 1987. Bible portions 1984-1986.

(Notice they site Ron for the information on Low Saxon.)

So why am I writing you all about this and not the editors?  Because I
don't feel that I could back up my corrections, not being a speaker, and my
arguement would end up just saying "the Lowlanders told me they were the
same language".  So if anyone else is so inclined, feel free to do so.

Also, I was wondering if any of you all can give me any more background the
following languages?  Below are the entries from Ethnologue.  Would these
languages be considered Lowlands?

ANGLOROMANI (ENGLISH ROMANI, ROMANI ENGLISH, ROMANICHAL, POGADI CHIB, POSH
'N' POSH) [RME] 90,000 in Britain (1990 I. Hancock); 75,000 in USA; 5,000
in Australia; 170,000 to 270,000 or more in all countries. England, Wales,
Scotland. Also in South Africa. Indo-European, Germanic, West, North Sea,
English. Angloromani not inherently intelligible with Welsh Romani,
Traveller Swedish, Traveller Norwegian, or Traveller Danish. The grammar is
basically English with heavy Romani lexical borrowing. Many dialects. It
has been spoken in the United Kingdom for 500 years. "The Romanichal
population must be considered as being more actively determined to retain
the ethnic language than some other British minorities." (I. Hancock).
Selections 1979. Work in progress.

POLARI [PLD] Unclassified. An in-group language among theatrical and circus
people. Survey needed.

TRAVELLER SCOTTISH (SCOTTISH CANT, SCOTTISH TRAVELLER CANT) [TRL] 4,000 in
Scotland; 4,000 in USA (1990 I. Hancock). Also in Australia. Unclassified.
A blend language of High Romani and Elizabethan Cant. The earliest texts go
back to the sixteenth century. Not Gypsies. Nomadic in Scotland. In USA
they travel but have a fixed base. Survey needed.

Thanks for being out there.

Jason

Jason Childers
Rochester, New York
jchilders at mindex.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Classification

Thanks for the info, Jason, and congrats on the new computer (he says jealously,
just having experienced a total crash of his).

Jason, I have contacted the editor of _Ethnologue_ two or three times regarding
the error that lists "Low Saxon," "Low German" and "Plautdietsch" separately.  I
had provided them with alternative names and with the information that the
language is spoken in the Netherlands as well (besides in non-European
communities), and I even furnished them with printed information and with a
map.  This was incorporated, albeit incorrectly.  Unfortunately, I neither
received a response to my messages in which I pointed out the error, nor was the
glaring error removed.  I had assumed that this could not be done before the
next edition came out.  I am now very much disappointed and perturbed that it
has been carried over to the latest (June 1999) edition, and this makes me
wonder what other errors there might be that don't get corrected even if people
point them out.  This is too bad, considering that (aside from religious
purposes) the _Ethnologue_ is used widely as a linguistic reference and has a
lot of potential as such.

Thanks again, Jason.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

bcc: Ethnologue Editor <Editor.Ethnologue at sil.org>

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