LL-L: "Etymology" (was "Landless languages") LOWLANDS-L, 09.NOV.1999 (02) [D/E]
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Tue Nov 9 15:57:50 UTC 1999
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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.NOV.1999 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Ted Harding [Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Landless languages" LOWLANDS-L, 07.NOV.1999 (03)
> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Landless Languages
>
> These espressions usually entered German via a now defunct semi-secret
> German-based "jargon" called "Rotwelsch," a language variety used by
> people outside the social mainstream.
This caught my eye and got me looking up "Welsch" in the German
dictionary. It says "Argot, thieves' cant". The archaic meaning
seems to be "Latin/Romance" as in "welsche Schweiz" (French-speaking
Switzerland). Recent German usage seems to be pejorative, e.g.
"die Welschen" as an insulting name for Italians.
In UK English (if not elsewhere) there is a slang verb "to welsh"
with a specialised meaning (of a bookie at a racecourse) to make
off with the money to avoid paying out to winners and, more generally,
to cheat or to deliberately avoid an obligation (especially financial).
Hence "he's a welsher", "to welsh on someone".
Chambers 20th C English Dictionary gives "origin obscure" for this
sense of "welsh". Maybe it has come to us via a Lowlands connection?
Be that as it may, I'll bet the majority of UK English, if they think
about it at all, will see "welsh" as derived from our brethren in Wales
(whose "Welsh", according to Chambers, apparently comes from the
Anglo-Saxon for Britons etc., from the name of an ancient Celtic
tribe, the "Volcae").
I suspect the interesting question in this double usage may be:
Where did the pejorative sense (cheat, thief, etc) come in and
is there indeed a connection with some ancient view of the Celts
which may have been held by the Lowlanders of former times?
Best wishes,
Ted.
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E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: 09-Nov-99 Time: 09:51:40
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
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From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.NOV.1999 (04) [D]
> From: gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu
> Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.NOV.1999 (02) [D/E]
>
> Floor van Lamoen schreef:
>
> > Ochtend en uchtend zijn sinds lang de gebruikelijke vormen in de
> > schrijftaal. In de spreektaal echter wordt de t niet gehoord;
> > men zegt altijd ochend.
>
> Nou, ik zeg de 't' wel degelijk. Ik kan me nauwelijks
> voorstellen dat ik de enige ben.
>
> Gustaaf
Hoewel ik vaker het woord 'morgen' gebruik, geldt voor mij hetzelfde.
Wat ik schreef was dan ook een citaat uit het "Woordenboek der
Nederlandse Taal" in CD-ROM versie. Daarin vond ik de door mij
ingestuurde etymologie met deze opmerking over de uitspraak.
Ik kan mij voorstellen dat in dit geval de schrijftaal de spreektaal
heeft veranderd, en dat de opmerking over de uitspraak dus gedateerd is.
Zoiets gebeurt nu ook met het woord pannenkoek.
Groeten,
Floor.
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From: Henno Brandsma [Henno.Brandsma at phil.uu.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.1999 (06) [E]
> From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
> Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.1999 (03) [E]
>
> > From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> > Subject: Etymology
> >
> > Hi, John!
> >
> > Thanks for the additional information above.
> >
> > However, this still leaves the question of the origin of 'to muck in',
> > doesn't it?
>
> This doesn't seem very mysterious to me if you look at it from the Scots
> point of view. For example, there's the well known song in Scots "The Muckin
> o Geordie's Byre" where "muckin" is cleaning out, i.e. getting rid of the
> muck.
>
> This is analogous to the Scots "redd", which means "rubbish" as a noun, but
> as a verb "tae redd" means "to tidy", i.e. get rid of the redd.
>
[snip]>
> Sandy
> http://scotstext.org
>
> ----------
Just a remark about "to redd". It might be connected to
English "to rid" (and also to the expression "to get rid of"),
but there is also a Frisian parallel: "opre^de" means to "to tidy up".
This is not the same as the verb "re^de"= Dutch redden = German retten
= "to save" (someone's live), I think.
There is no noun "re^d" connected to this though ("re^d" does exist and is
cognate to Dutch "rad", German "Rad", "wheel").
I believe Saterlandic also has _apra"a"de_, or something very similar.
Up to now I considered it to be a typically Frisian word, but maybe
I have to "withdraw" to "merely" Ingvaeonic now?
Any other Lowlands langs with a cognate? Low Saxon would be nice,
especially if it only were a word in East Frisian Low Saxon...
Henno Brandsma
----------
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology
Henno wrote:
> Just a remark about "to redd". It might be connected to
> English "to rid" (and also to the expression "to get rid of"),
> but there is also a Frisian parallel: "opre^de" means to "to tidy up".
> This is not the same as the verb "re^de"= Dutch redden = German retten
> = "to save" (someone's live), I think.
> There is no noun "re^d" connected to this though ("re^d" does exist and is
> cognate to Dutch "rad", German "Rad", "wheel").
Cf. Low Saxon (Low German):
(1) /red-/ redden ['rEd=n] 'to save', 'to rescue'
(2) redig ['re:dIC] ~ reddig ['rEdIC] 'ready', 'fitting', 'suitable', 'handy',
'tidy', 'in order', 'clean', 'really', 'actually', 'very' (often contracted
to _reer_).
(3) reedsch [re:tS] (similar or identical to _redig_)
(4) reed' ~ ree [re:(d)] ~ reeds [re:ts] 'ready'
I believe 2-4 are related to English 'ready'.
Regards,
Reinhard
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