LL-L: "Syntax" LOWLANDS-L, 09.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

Tue Nov 9 16:11:20 UTC 1999

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From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Syntax" LOWLANDS-L, 08.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

Dear Reinhard,

Let me give some Dutch translation:

> Standard German:
> (a) Davon weiß ich nichts.
> (b) Ich weiß nichts davon.
> (c) Ich weiß davon nichts.
>
> Missingsch/Northern German:
> (a) Da weiß ich nix von.
> (b) Ich weiß da nix von.
> ((c) Ich weiß da von nix. ?)
>
> Low Saxon:
> (a) Daar weet ick niks vun.
> (b) Ick weet daar niks vun.
> ((c) Ick weet daar vun niks. ?)

Dutch:

(a) Daar weet ik niets/niks van.
    Daar weet ik niets vanaf. (If it points to a subject)
(b) Ik weet daar niets/niks van.

***

> Standard German:
> (a) Dagegen hat er nichts.
> (b) Er hat nichts dagegen.
> (c) Er hat dagegen nichts.
>
> Missingsch/Northern German:
> (a) Da hat er nix gegen.
> (b) Er hat da nix gegen.
> ((c) Er hat dagegen nix. ?)
>
> Low Saxon:
> (a) Daar hett he niks gegen.
> (b) He hett daar niks gegen.
> ((c) *He hett daar gegen niks. ?)

Dutch:
(a) Daar heeft hij niets/niks tegen
(b) Hij heeft daar niets/niks tegen

***

> Standard German:
> (a) Darunter hat sie etwas gefunden.
> (b) Sie hat etwas darunter gefunden.
> (c) Sie hat darunter etwas gefunden.
>
> Missingsch/Northern German:
> (a) Da hat sie was under gefunnen.
> (b) Sie hat was da under gefunnen.
> ((c) Sie hat da under was gefunnen. ?)
>
> Low Saxon:
> (a) Daar hett se wat ünner funnen.
> (b) Se hett daar wat ünner funnen.
> ((c) Se hett daar ünner wat funnen. ?)

(a) Daaronder heeft zij iets/wat gevonden.
    Daar heeft zij iets/wat onder gevonden.
(b) Zij heeft iets/wat daaronder gevonden.
    Zij heeft daar iets/wat onder gevonden.
(c) Zij heeft daaronder iets gevonden.
(d) Zij heeft iets gevonden daaronder.

***

> Standard German:
> (a) Da hinein (~ darein) passt viel.
> (b) Es passt viel da hinein (~ darein).
>
> Missingsch/Northern German:
> Da geht/passt viel rein.
>
> Low Saxon:
> Daar gait/passt veel rin.

Dutch:
(a) Daar gaat/past/kan veel in.

Best regards,
Floor.

----------

From: Henno Brandsma [Henno.Brandsma at phil.uu.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Syntax" LOWLANDS-L, 08.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Syntax
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I would like to solicit your input regarding variation in a certain type of
> basic syntactic construction.  In particular, I would like to find out how
far
> spread each variant is, and if we are dealing with "Lowlandic" versus
> "non-Lowlandic" patterns.  For introductory purposes I will limit this to
> German, Low Saxon (Low German) and English.  I will not dabble in the other
> languages but will leave it up to the experts to provide equivalents.
>
> The type of construction I have in mind may be summarized as follows:
>
> Standard German:
> (a) da(r)+PREP. VERB PERS.PRON. ...
> (b) PERS.PRON. VERB ... da+PREP.
> (c) PERS.PRON. VERB da(r)+PREP. ...
>
In oersetting en in pear kommintaren oangeande it Westerlauwer Frysk:

> Standard German:
> (a) Davon weiß ich nichts.
> (b) Ich weiß nichts davon.
> (c) Ich weiß davon nichts.

a) De^r wit ik neat fan. This is a way of emphasizing: Of that I know
nothing. More neutral is the form with weakened der:
b) Ik wit der neat fan. I would assume that this order is underlying
(for the main clause, in general one has to assume the order
[ik der neat fan wit], but this is the sentence after V2. This last
0rder is the only one in dependent clauses).
a) then derives from b) by "fronting" _de^r_, and then the stressed form
is used, instead of the more "clitic" _der_.

> Low Saxon:
> (a) Daar weet ick niks vun.
> (b) Ick weet daar niks vun.
> ((c) Ick weet daar vun niks. ?)

So Frisian is quite like LS here, except that we have a difference
stressed vs unstressed "daar".

BTW, in Dutch the sentence "Daarvan weet ik niets" is ok, but less
frequent, I think. Normal is "Daar weet ik niets van" or "Ik weet
er niets van". I couldn't say "Ik weet daarvan niets", except in
rare cases. Definitely stilted.

> English:
> (a) I know nothing about it/that.
> (b) I don't know (anything) about it/that.

Think also of older forms in English like "thereof", etc. In shakespearean
times this was still the normal construction in English.

> Note also double preposition involving _af_ 'off' in the verb _afweten_ 'to
know
> well', 'to be familiar with', 'to be well-versed in' in Low Saxon:
> (a) Daar weet ick niks vun af.
> (b) Ick weet daar niks vun af.
> ((c) Ick weet daar vun niks af. ?)
> (cf. German _Davon verstehe ich nichts_ / _Ich verstehe nichts davon_ / _Ich

> verstehe davon nichts _  'I have no clue about it/that', 'I'm not familiar
with
> it/that', 'I'm not well-versed in it/that')

Indeed Dutch also has : daar weet ik niets van af, daarvan weet ik niets af,
but never *daarvanaf weet ik niets. Ok is: ik weet daarvan niets af, but
it is less "natural" sounding.

In Frisian I'd rather say: Ik wit der neat fan, etc. Not a double
preposition, which sounds like "Dutch Frisian" to me.

> Preposition: G. _gegen_, LS _gegen_~_tegen_ 'against'
>
> Standard German:
> (a) Dagegen hat er nichts.
> (b) Er hat nichts dagegen.
> (c) Er hat dagegen nichts.

De^r hat er neat tsjin.
Hy hat der neat tsjin.
{note the clitics er/der after a verb, vs the non-clitic hy/de^r before!}
* Hy hat dertsjin neat. (au!)
* Hy hat neat dertsjin  (au!)

But Dutch has "Hij had niets ertegen", but more natural is
"Hij had er niets tegen".

> Preposition: G. _unter_, LS _ünner_~_unner_ 'under(neath)'
>
> Standard German:
> (a) Darunter hat sie etwas gefunden.
> (b) Sie hat etwas darunter gefunden.
> (c) Sie hat darunter etwas gefunden.

De^r hat se wat u^nder fu^n.
Hja hat der wat u^nder fu^n.
*Hja hat deru^nder wat fu^n.
*hja hat wat deru^nder fu^n.

> English:
> She (has) found something underneath it/that.
>
> Preposition: G. _hinein_ (~ _rein_), LS _rin_ 'in(to)'
>
> Standard German:
> (a) Da hinein (~ darein) passt viel.
> (b) Es passt viel da hinein (~ darein).

De^r past in soad yn. (stressed: In that a lot can be fitted)
Der past in soad yn. (a lot fits into that)

> Thank you very much for thinking about it.
>
> Regards.
>
> Reinhard/Ron

Nowadays stranding the proposition is almost everywhere compulsory.
In writing one sometimes finds forms like "de^ryn", but they
have to me a bookish taste, and I only use them when I think
the sentence would become unclear otherwise, as a stylistic option.
But in speech I (almost) always use the split versions.

One exception: when "der" replaces a concrete thing, it's ok to
use "deryn" etc: Hy sit op in stoel --> Hy sit derop. You get
the idea, I think. In this respect English is more extreme..

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Henno wrote:

> So Frisian is quite like LS here, except that we have a difference
> stressed vs unstressed "daar".

Actually, the same or a similar difference of emphasis is there in Low Saxon
as well.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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