LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L, 21.NOV.1999 (01) [E/German]

Sun Nov 21 23:40:29 UTC 1999

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.NOV.1999 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Eldo Neufeld [greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca]
Subject: LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L, 19.NOV.1999 (03) [E/German]

>From: Eldo Neufeld [greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca]
>Subject: Low Saxon grammar

>I have received a message from The Institut für niederdeutsche Sprache in
>Bremen which reads as follows:  "Insofern ist es naheliegend, in den
>Niederlanden eine Grammatik zum Nedersaksischen herauszubringen."  Does
>anyone have any information on this?
>
>Eldo Neufeld
>4040 Blenheim St.
>Vancouver, BC   V6L 2Y9
>Tel: (604) 738-4378
>e-mail: greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
>Subject: Low Saxon
>
Reinhard Hahn wrote:

>Dear Eldo,
>
>Thanks for the information and question (above).
>
>It seems to me that we are missing a vital piece of information that
>supposedly
>came before that sentence, some type of statement or reasoning why it is
>justified to come up with a grammar of Low Saxon of the Netherlands.  (And it
>does not sound as though such an effort is underway.)
>
Ron, since you wrote to me directly I will address this to you as well.
You are right, of course, I should not have quoted the Institut out of
context, although what was written to me was part of a welter of answers to
a welter of questions I had asked.  In an earlier e-mail to the Institut, I
said (as naively as I could) "... I wonder whether  [in view of the fact
that Niederdeutsch, or dialects thereof, are also spoken in Friesland,
Groningen, Canada and the USA, Mexico, Paraguay, and other South American
countries] the Niederdeutsche Grammatik should perhaps have been entitled
"Grammatik der niederdeutschen Sprache Deutschlands."  His answer to that
was "Nun, und was den Titel angeht, sollten Sie vielleicht die Autoren
befragen.  Nomen est omen, und die (hoch-)deutsche Grammatik heiss (sik)
auch so.  Aber ob das der Grund ist?  Oder war es gar nur die Ästhetik?"
(!!??)  Obviously he does not want to answer the question directly.  In my
next e-mail, I asked whether, to his knowledge, the dialects of
Niederdeutsch spoken in Friesland, Groningen, and perhaps in parts of
Scandinavia, were similar to Platt in northern Germany.  His answer to that
was a paragraph from which I quoted the one sentence.  The part leading up
to my sentence, which you felt was an important part, reads as follows
(this is the beginning of the entire message he wrote): "Nun gibt es viele
Kontakte zwischen Sprachen und auch viele Verwandtschaften.  Etwa das von
Ihnen angesprochene Nedersaksische ist dem Niederdeutschen sehr ähnlich,
allein ist es eine niederländische Sprache." [Referring to my dialect
Plautdietsch, about which I had asked.]  Then: "Insofern ist es
naheliegend, in den Niederlanden eine Grammatik zum Nedersaksischen
herauszubringen..."

I'm no linguist, Ron, but having dug around in languages for many years,
one does eventually learn to decipher something of the difference between
truth and bullshit.  I think you're absolutely right about the German
scholars considering the boundaries of modern Germany as more or less the
boundaries of what is important regarding Niederdeutsch.  I'm currently
wading through "Handbuch zur niederdeutschen Sprach- und
Literaturwissenschaft," and there's plenty of evidence of that
consideration there, too.  I admire the writing in that book, as well as
the "Niederdeutsche Grammatik" very highly.  But a little more
consideration of the wider ramifications of what they're doing would be
welcome.

That's the extent of my bullshit, and I am dropping the matter of pursuing
further questions with the representative of the Institut.  I don't believe
I can gain anything further.

I appreciate your delineating of the problem in your long answer to me, and
I must say, that even though I don't really contribute to L-L (limited
knowledge and lack of linguistic background), I enjoy the group
tremendously.  (I have difficulty with Afrikaans, but most of the other
languages and dialects I can wade through and get most of the gist.)  Keep
up the good work.  Your own knowlege and experience always shine through
brilliantly!  Eldo

Eldo Neufeld
4040 Blenheim St.
Vancouver, BC   V6L 2Y9
Tel: (604) 738-4378
e-mail: greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Low Saxon

Thank you very much for the clarification (above), Eldo.

You wrote to the Institute:

> I wonder whether  [in view of the fact
> that Niederdeutsch, or dialects thereof, are also spoken in Friesland,
> Groningen, Canada and the USA, Mexico, Paraguay, and other South American
> countries] the Niederdeutsche Grammatik should perhaps have been entitled
> "Grammatik der niederdeutschen Sprache Deutschlands."

and they replied:

> "Nun gibt es viele
> Kontakte zwischen Sprachen und auch viele Verwandtschaften.  Etwa das von
> Ihnen angesprochene Nedersaksische ist dem Niederdeutschen sehr ähnlich,
> allein ist es eine niederländische Sprache."

Why is it a "Netherlandic language"?  Simply because it happens to be used in
the Netherlands and uses Dutch-based orthographies?  Or because it is more
convenient to have a linguistic boundary -- oops! what a happy surprise! --
coincide exactly with a political boundary, and not have one's _Weltbild_ upset
and field of responsibility extended overnight?  I suppose then that all those
cross-border activities of Low Saxon (Low German) speakers have been mere futile
efforts, and the Freudenthal Association of Northern Germany is misguided when
it not only admits Low Saxon literature submissions from the Netherlands but
even awarded two of them (both by Henk Krosenbrink) second place in their annual
competitions.

And this is supposed to be a response to your question about Plautdietsch?!  I
suppose then that that dialect group might be considered far too exotic to even
be touched.

Well, Folks, writers of Netherlands Low Saxon and Plautdietsch, all I can
suggest is to participate in each and every "Low German" activity, including
literature competitions.  Perhaps a bit of "in your face!" will cause at least a
few people to wake up and smell the _Muckefuck_ (or the _Mist_, whichever you
prefer).

> I'm no linguist, Ron, but having dug around in languages for many years,
> one does eventually learn to decipher something of the difference between
> truth and bullshit.

Dear Eldo, you ought not hide your light under a bushel.  Besides, "naive"
questions are usually the most pertinent.

Thanks for sharing your information and opinion.

Best wishes,

Reinhard/Ron

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