LL-L: "Celtic connections" LOWLANDS-L, 25.OCT.1999 (08) [E]

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From: Ian James Parsley [parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Celtic connections" LOWLANDS-L, 24.OCT.1999 (05) [E]

All,

I wonder if maybe there are some new members a little complexed by some of
the terminology others take for granted on this list, so maybe I could
answer Mark's question in more detail for the benefit of those new to this
whole thing.

The vast majority of languages spoken across Europe (and also across to
parts of the northern Indian subcontinent) are derived from the same single
language, known as Proto-Indo-European (occasionally as
Proto-Indo-Germanic). This language split up into different dialects, which
became unintelligible (i.e. incomprehensible) from each other, probably some
time in the second millennium BCE, as tribes moved to new areas and came
into contact with new things.

These languages, such as Proto-Celtic, Proto-Germanic and
Proto-Italic/Romance then split up again into new languages, and so on and
so forth, so that we have an "Indo-European language tree" which looks like
a family tree. Modern Irish can be said to be the "daughter language" of
Proto-Celtic, which is turn is the daughter language of Proto-Indo-European.
In turn Welsh can be seen as a "sister language" of Irish as both are
derived from Proto-Celtic, and so on. Ultimately on this basis languages
such as Irish and Welsh would be distant relations (cousins, I suppose :-))
of Germanic language such as German or English.

If only it were that simple. Of course languages split up but then come back
into contact with each other. English is a notorious case of this, having
split from French it then came to be influenced very heavily by it a couple
of millennia later at the time of the Norman conquest, and then to confuse
issues there was the distinction between Latin (the "lingua franca" or
"common language" of the time), Norman French and Parisian French to contend
with. But such things keep linguists busy.

Taking the case of Scots: Proto-Germanic split into East, West and North
Germanic (it's slightly more complicated than that, but that'll do for now).
In turn, West Germanic split into "Insular" and "Continental" (many other
titles are assigned to these two, but they don't matter here), and "Insular"
came to be represented by Old Frisian and Anglo-Saxon late in the first
millennium of our era. Anglo-Saxon then split into several dialects, the
southern ones becoming English and the Northumbrian dialect becoming Scots.
Of course, the Celts had got to Britain before the Angles and the Saxons,
and Celtic languages therefore continue to influence English to this day
(and vice-versa, of course).

So to answer your question, Mark, you cannot say that one modern-day
language is derived from another. English, German and Gaelic all share a
common ancestor in "Indo-European", but English and German are more closely
related in that they both belong to the "Germanic" (and indeed "West
Germanic") branch, whereas Gaelic belongs to the Celtic branch.

For list members who still aren't too sure about this, the Indo-European
language tree can be found in most good general encyclopedias, I recommend
consulting one as this makes the thing a whole lot clearer!

Regards,
-------------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
"JOY - Jesus, Others, You"
REPLY NOT WORK? TRY:
parsleyij at hotmail.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Celtic connections

Hello, Ian!

Thanks for the explanation above.  Just a question:

You wrote:

> into contact with each other. English is a notorious case of this, having
> split from French it then came to be influenced very heavily by it a couple
> of millennia later at the time of the Norman conquest, and then to confuse
> issues there was the distinction between Latin (the "lingua franca" or
> "common language" of the time), Norman French and Parisian French to contend
> with. But such things keep linguists busy.

What do you mean to say by "English ... having split from French"?  At least to
the non-linguist, if not to most people, this sounds like English is some sort
of descendant of French and thus basically Romance.  Or am I missing something?
Of course English is a Germanic language that underwent considerable Romance
influences, mostly from Latin and French.

Another word to Mark:

Mark, I need to remind you that German is not considered a Lowlands language on
this list.  It is Germanic, as are the Lowlands languages, the Nordic languages
and also Yiddish (the latter of which developed from German).  This list
concerns itself only with the Lowlandic languages, i.e., the non-Scandinavian
Germanic languages that did not undergo the (High) German shifts.  You might
refer to them as "West Germanic" if you assume that German and Yiddish belong to
a separate branch: South Germanic.  We deal with German only in terms of
comparison, etymology, etc., and also with North German dialects that have
replaced Low Saxon (Low German) and have been influenced by it.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Celtic connections" LOWLANDS-L, 24.OCT.1999 (05) [E]

Mark wrote:
>
>Does German originate from Gaelic or some form of celtic Gaelic?
>I read that German is derived from ancient celtic languages
>and latin influences, is this true?.  Furthermore, Scots is derived from
>German, Norse, etc.. but influenced by Gaelic and an older sister language to
>English.  However, I understand that most peoples of Scotland never spoke
>Gaelic or Erse but spoke languages which were Germanic.  If so, how strong is
>the Gaelic influences in Scots?  Is it's influence limited to accent and tone
>of language?

In addition to what Ron wrote, it's important to realise that Scots is not
descended from German - that is, from modern German - but that Scots,
English and German are all descended from an older, undocumented language
which scholars would call proto-Germanic. Because of this, German, the
Scandinavian languages, Scots, English and the other Lowlands languages
studied on this list are known as Germanic languages. The Germanic, Celtic
and Romance (i.e. descended from Latin) languages - plus several other
modern language families - are in turn descended from an even older
undocumented language, which scholars call Indo-European.

Scots and English are both derived ultimately from Anglo-Saxon, a Germanic
language which displaced the Celtic languages in most of what is now the
United Kingdom. At one time Gaelic - which came to Scotland from Ireland -
was indeed spoken over much of what is now Scotland (in much of what is now
Perthshire and Aberdeenshire for example: both had living native Gaelic
speakers this century) but it was displaced firstly by Scots in the
Lowlands, and now increasingly by English in the Highlands.

Norse and Gaelic influence on Scots is largely in terms of loan words -
e.g. Scots _bairn_ and _greet_ are Norse in origin; _loch_ and _whisky_ are
Gaelic in origin. Most other Scots words - such as _man_, _hame_ etc. - are
common Germanic, and come to Scots from its parent Anglo-Saxon.

John M. Tait.

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