LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.1999 (01)

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From: Edwin Michael Alexander [edsells at wwwebcity.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" (was "Veluws dialect") [D/E/LS] LOWLANDS-L,
07.SEP.1999 (02)

At 03:16 PM 09/07/99 -0700, Iustin Churchill  wrote:

>  I find it fascinating that the two words for 'room' and 'stove' are linked
>like this.

Well, the other English cognate is <stow>, as in "stowaway", which is also
related to the idea of a "room", though a "stove" is not a good place to
"stow" things.

It has always been my opinion, Ron's notwithstanding, that heater/cooker
thing is called a "stove" because it is a "small room", rather than derived
from the name of rooms that were large enough to have heaters.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Hungarian and Romanian words were borrowed
from the Germanic influence always present in those areas.

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-545-0177  Fax: 905-525-6671 Email: edsells at wwwebcity.com
Jag Realty Inc.: http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
Ontario Ultra Series:  http://www.connection.com/~esmond/ouser.html
Burlington Runners Club: http://www.deerhurst.com/brc/

----------


In response to:
> > - 'stammetjen' voor 'klein mannetje' is mij van hier niet bekend
> > - TW 'heerd' is Nederlands (NL) 'haard', of 'vuurplaats', TW 'an n
>heerd
 > zitn' is NL 'bij het vuur zitten' en dus ook 'in de kamer zitten'
>
Ron wrote:
>Ook nordsassisch (in D{u"}{u"}tschland) _Stuuv'_ [stu:.v] (< _Stuve_) un
>d{u"}{u"}tsch _Stube_ 'Kamer' versus ingelsch _stove_ 'Heerd'.

  I find it fascinating that the two words for 'room' and 'stove' are linked
like this. I do admit I have not been following this thread, mostly because
it would have been far too labourious to decifer it all, but I am puzzled by
these two words. In Hungarian 'szoba' means room as in 'Kamer', and the
Romanians in Hungary borrowed the word and use it likewise. But the
Romanians in Romania use the word to mean 'stove'. I would assume the word
could have developed seperately like as proposed above :'bij het vuur
zitten' en dus ook 'in de kamer zitten'. I do wonder though because the word
does seem so similar:
(Hun)Szoba  -> (Rom)Soba       (Germ)Stube -> (Eng) Stove
Could there possibly be a connection? I suppose this seems somewhat trivial
but it's just the sort of candy my mind likes to chew on...
thanx fer listnin          -Justin Churchill

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Ed wrote (above):

> It has always been my opinion, Ron's notwithstanding, that heater/cooker
> thing is called a "stove" because it is a "small room", rather than derived
> from the name of rooms that were large enough to have heaters.

Hi, Ed!  This is an interesting alternative angle from which to look at it.  It
is most certainly peculiar that English seems to have steered the word into a
new semantic direction.  (For those of you who just joined us, let me explain
that English _stove_ apparently comes from Middle Low Saxon [Middle Low German]
_stuve_ '(the) heated room (in the house)' > Modern Low Saxon _Stuve_ ~ _Stuuv'_
'room'.)  However, I wonder ...  Do you mean to say that English speakers
misunderstood the Low Saxon word by assuming that the heating device itself was
being meant, because it itself is a small "room"?  I assume that a stove -- a
chamber in which to burn fuel -- was a technological innovation in Britain,
introduced through trade with the Hanseatic League whose lingua franca Low Saxon
was.  It partly replaced the "hearth," an open fireplace for heating and
cooking.  Low Saxon has developed the cognate of "hearth," _heird_ (_Heerd_)
[hEI^t] (< Old Saxon *_hêrth_?), to denote 'stove'.  So you get a peculiar case
of semantic crossing here.

Incidentally, assumedly borrowed from East Frisian, Modern Low Saxon (Low
German) has the diminutive form of "stove" in the word (/stouve+ken/ >
/stöüvken/) _Stöövken_ ~ _Stöfken_ (which was borrowed into German as
_Stöfchen_).  It denotes a device that keeps a tea or coffee pot warm.  It is a
pedestal, usually made from china, a semi-enclosure with a hollow space in which
to place a votive candle.  If this word does come from Frisian, does this mean
that Frisian borrowed the English word _stove_ denoting a heating chamber?  What
is the fate of the equivalents of _stove_ in the various varieties of Frisian?

The plot thickens.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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