LL-L: "Etymology" (was "Veluws dialect") [D/E/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 07.SEP.1999 (02)

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From: Iustin Churchill [mladios at hotmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Veluws dialect" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 07.SEP.1999 (01)

In response to:
> > - 'stammetjen' voor 'klein mannetje' is mij van hier niet bekend
> > - TW 'heerd' is Nederlands (NL) 'haard', of 'vuurplaats', TW 'an n
>heerd
 > zitn' is NL 'bij het vuur zitten' en dus ook 'in de kamer zitten'
>
Ron wrote:
>Ook nordsassisch (in D{u"}{u"}tschland) _Stuuv'_ [stu:.v] (< _Stuve_) un
>d{u"}{u"}tsch _Stube_ 'Kamer' versus ingelsch _stove_ 'Heerd'.

  I find it fascinating that the two words for 'room' and 'stove' are linked
like this. I do admit I have not been following this thread, mostly because
it would have been far too labourious to decifer it all, but I am puzzled by
these two words. In Hungarian 'szoba' means room as in 'Kamer', and the
Romanians in Hungary borrowed the word and use it likewise. But the
Romanians in Romania use the word to mean 'stove'. I would assume the word
could have developed seperately like as proposed above :'bij het vuur
zitten' en dus ook 'in de kamer zitten'. I do wonder though because the word
does seem so similar:
(Hun)Szoba  -> (Rom)Soba       (Germ)Stube -> (Eng) Stove
Could there possibly be a connection? I suppose this seems somewhat trivial
but it's just the sort of candy my mind likes to chew on...
thanx fer listnin          -Justin Churchill

----------

From: Lowlands-L Administrator [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Goaitsen van der Vliet wrote about a Veluwe Low Saxon word:

> - 'stammetjen' voor 'klein mannetje' is mij van hier niet bekend

I keep wondering about this word.  I assume it is derived from _stam_ 'stem' ,
and I assume further that it is in the sense of not 'stem of a tree' but of the
derived sense 'tribe', 'clan', 'family', a sense of the word also found in other
Low Saxon (Low German) dialects as well as in German _Stamm_.  In North Saxon of
Germany, (/stam+hold+er/ >) _Stammhöller_ "stem (>clan/family) holder" (like
German _Stammhalter_) refers to a son, namely to someone who, in patrilineal
society, keeps the family line alive, at least in name.  I am wondering if the
Veluwe Low Saxon diminutive word form _stammetjen_ "little stem" is derived from
just that, i.e., 'little "stem" holder'.  Well, at least that's my theory for
now.  'Son' > 'boy' > 'little man' does not seem like a stretch of the
imagination, especially considering that in Low Saxon (as in many other
languages) the same word (e.g., _Jung_) tends to be used for 'son' and 'boy'.

Justin Churchill asked (above):

>  I find it fascinating that the two words for 'room' and 'stove' are linked
> like this. I do admit I have not been following this thread, mostly because
> it would have been far too labourious to decifer it all, but I am puzzled by
> these two words. In Hungarian 'szoba' means room as in 'Kamer', and the
> Romanians in Hungary borrowed the word and use it likewise. But the
> Romanians in Romania use the word to mean 'stove'. I would assume the word
> could have developed seperately like as proposed above :'bij het vuur
> zitten' en dus ook 'in de kamer zitten'. I do wonder though because the word
> does seem so similar:
> (Hun)Szoba  -> (Rom)Soba       (Germ)Stube -> (Eng) Stove
> Could there possibly be a connection? I suppose this seems somewhat trivial
> but it's just the sort of candy my mind likes to chew on...

Justin, apparently English _stove_ is a Middle Low Saxon (Middle Low German)
loan: *_stuve_ 'heated room'.  'Heated room' also used to be the original
meaning of the English word, and I assume that this shifted to denote the device
that heats the room.

I do not think that the English/Low Saxon/German case and the Hungary/Romania
Hungarian case are terribly strange, though they are interestingly coincidental
and seem to prove a point.  What you have to bear in mind is that originally
(and even today) European houses, once they had developed multi-room layouts,
had only one room that could be heated, mostly because both stoves and fuel were
very expensive commodities.  (Bedrooms were never heated in ordinary homes. In
the wintertime you had to go to bed dressed, used plenty of covers and, where
possible, shut the doors of the bed alcove.)

In many Low Saxon (Low German) dialects _Stuve_ ~ _Stuuv'_ has come to denote
any living room or any room except a bedroom.  Small rooms, including bedrooms,
are often called _Kamer_ (cf. _chamber_ < _chambre_ < _camera_).

Incidentally, in many of the more easterly Low Saxon dialects (say, from the
Lower Elbe eastward), a West Slavic loanword has come to specifically denote
'living room', which in other dialects is often called something like _gode
Stuuv'_ "good room," i.e., the room in the front part of the house that is/used
to be reserved for special occasions, e.g., as a parlor in which to entertain
guests.  This word is _Döns_ ~ _Dönz_ ~ _Dorns_ (or something like it in various
dialects).  It appears to be a loan from Polabian (a now extinct and poorly
known West Slavic language once used in what is now Germany).  Low Saxon _Döns_
~ _Dönz_ ~ _Dorns_ might be derived from something like *_d(w)örnice_ ~
*d(w)ornice_ < *_dwornica_ *"area/room by the (front) door."  (Polabian had
Germanic-type umlauting! The _c_ is pronounced like [ts].  Or did Polabian have
c > s?  I don't think so, and the Low Saxon variant _Dönz_ with [ts] seems to
disprove it.)

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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