LL-L: "Place names" LOWLANDS-L, 20.APR.2000 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Place names

Dear Lowlanders,

I recently asked about the place names "Borstal" in Britain and "Borstel" in
Northern Germany.  Here is a brief recap:

Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Place names
> If "Borstal" is indeed a place name in England, I wonder if it can be linked
> with "Borstel," a frequently occurring place name in Northern Germany, namely
> in Lower Saxony, Sleswig-Holsteen/Schleswig-Holstein and Saxony-Anhalt, and
> also Low Saxon "Lütt Borstel/Bossel" and "Groot Borstel/Bossel" -- German
> "Klein-Borstel" and "Groß Bostel" in Hamborg/Hamburg).

Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Gerald F Tighe [gftighe2 at artphotoprints.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Place names" LOWLANDS-L, 11.APR.2000 (01) [E]
> Yes. It is southeast of Rochester, southwest of Chatham, and even further
> north of Maidston. This from plate 14 C2 of 1989 Bartholomew Road Atlas (3 miles: 1
> inch) The 1986 Oxford Reference gives:
> "Borstal n. the former name for an institution for reforming and training
> young offenders. [f. Borstal in Kent]"

Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Pat Reynolds [pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Place names" LOWLANDS-L, 11.APR.2000 (01) [E]
> Ekwall has the etymology as 'boar's hall' (hall not meaning hall, but in
> it's OE sense (whatever that was, I cant remember - sorry, dashing this
> off before I go to work, and it's snowed!!! so I have to clear my car
> first!))

Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Ludger Kaczmarek [L.Kaczmarek at t-online.de]
Subject: Place Names: Borstal/Borstel
> on the German "Borstel" placenames see Hartwig Franke, Die
> Borstel-Namen, in: Niederdeutsches Wort 15, 1975, pp. 36-59. You
> can reach him at IFAS at uni-muenster.de

Thanks to Ludger's reference, I seem to have come up with a little more.  The
following is the mere gist of it.

"Bostel" is a fairly common place name in the area comprising Lower Saxony,
Hamborg/Hamburg and Sleswig-Holsteen/Schleswig-Holstein in Northern Germany.
It occurs not only by itself but also in numerous compound names.

The name is derived from a noun compound: _bûr_ 'settlement', 'homestead' and
_stal_ 'place'.

Neither of these is known to occur in Old or Middle (Low) Saxon (Low German).
_Bûrstal_ and derivatives can be verified to have existed no earlier than in
the 9th century, and it continuously shows up in documents only beginning with
the 11th century.  This leads Franke to assume that the name is not Saxon but
is a German (Franconian?) loan introduced in the post-Carolingian era (i.e.,
after Charlemagne's Franconian-dominated subjugation of the Saxon-speaking
areas).  Interestingly, place names of this type were recorded earlier in the
south (beginning with the south of Lower Saxony). However, Franke does not
endorse the conclusion that it is a case of south-to-north spread from
German-speaking into Saxon-speaking areas.

On the basis of early documentation then, it does not seem possible to link
North German "Borstel" with English "Borstal."  However, let's remember that
written records don't always tell the whole story.  _Bûr_ did not occur in Old
or Middle Saxon?  Huh?

By the way, Franke also mentions the use of what appears to be a Modern Low
Saxon derivative: _Jan Niklas harr sin Burstell vunne Vader arvt, ..._ [Jan
Niklas had inherited his farmstead from his father, ...] (Klaus Groth,
_Vertelln_ 2 vol., Kiel: Trina, 1859).  I take this with a grain of salt.
Could this not simply be _Buurstell_ ~ _Buurstee(d')_ 'farmstead' (< _Buur_
'farmer' + _Stell_ ~ _Steed'_ ~ _Stee_ 'stead', 'place'), not directly
connected with the place name?

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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