LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 11.AUG.2000 (11) [E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Fri Aug 11 23:59:10 UTC 2000
Sorry. This one got away too early. Here the full version.
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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.AUG.2000 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Kent Randau [kentr at tripnet.se]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 02.AUG.2000 (06) [E]
>From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
>Subject: Language standardisation
>
>This may be of interest in relation to some recent lines of discussion.
>
>The city fathers of Göteborg have decided that they don't like the
>international designation of "Gothenburg" for their home and have laid
down
>that the Swedish name is to be used exclusively. The obvious problem is
that
>"Göteborg" is unpronounceable to people who don't understand Swedish
>spelling conventions. The pronunciation, in a pseudo-phonetic English
>spelling, is "Yerterbory", the first two r's not being pronounced.
>"Goaterborg", which is closer to the way most English speakers are likely
to
>pronounce the word, doesn't seem to be much of a gain on "Gothenburg".
Since
>the use of unaccented vowels is more Internet-friendly this seems to be a
>peculiarly bad time to make the switch.
Sorry, this reply should have been written many moons ago. But I
recently invested in a CD-R, so I waste more time burning CD:s and
less reading Lowlands-L. Anyway, I live just five minutes south of
Götebotg/Gothenburg. (Actually I don't have any problem with the use
of Gothenburg internationally)
>BTW, the Swedish rule for e-mail addresses is that the accent is simply
>omitted. What is the rule in Lowland languages?
I object to the idea that the special characters in Swedish, å, ä, ö
are mere accented vowels. To a native Swedish speaker those
characters are very much their own letters representing it's own
sound. The omission in email-adress has nothing to do with those
letters being "accents". They are replaced by the most similar
international standard letter, i.e. a and o.
My apologies for being late and possibly irrelevant
Kent Randau
(just south of Göteborg/Gothenburg - in Mölndal)
----------
From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 11.AUG.2000 (06) [E]
John hef schreven:
>
>The Dutch plural of "radius" is "radii" (or "radiussen" - cf E.
"radiuses").
>A number of Latin-derived words in "-us" form plurals in this way. "-a"
>would be the plural form of a noun in "-um", eg "musea", "gymnasia".
>
-a is also used for the plural of stadion (-> stadia).
Just thought of that...
Henry
----------
From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.2000 (09) [E]
Below I included my answer to Ron's questionaire.
I've edited it a little, added some tabs, instead of paces, for
readability.
I also added a somewhat phonetic representation of my dialect.
(sorry, still don't know much about Sampa).
I added 14, 15, 16 and 17. I'm not sure how to explain how to pronounce
them, so I'll leave that to a later date, but I added the numbers, so I
can
tag
the words that share the same sound, yet are different from the others.
regards,
Henry
Please indicate the number after each:
01 [a] (e.g. German _Mann_)
02 [a.] (slightly longer than 1)
03 [a:] (e.g. Dutch _baas_ or Australian _part_)
04 [a:.] (extra-long version of 1)
06 [Q] (e.g. Dutch _kan_)
07 [Q.] (half-long version of 4)
08 [Q:] (or [O:], e.g. "posh" British/South African _part_)
09 [Q:.] (extra-long version of 4)
10 [o:] (e.g. German _Rose_)
11 [o:.] (extra-long version of 10)
12 [oU] (e.g. _go_ in most English and American varieties)
13 [o.U] (longer version of 12)
Ron Henry Comment
man: man 01 ma' 01
day: dag 01 dag 01
that: dat 01 daet (??) sounds like "that", with d
in front
roof: dak 01 dak 01
cat: kat 01 katte 01
to laugh: lachen 01 lachen 01
might: macht 01 mach' 01
strength: kraft/kracht 01 krach' 01
fast, tight: fast 01 fast(e) 01
damp: damp 02 damp 02
thank: dank 02 dank 02
dance: danss 02 dans(e) 02
tight: drang 02 strak 01
all: al 02 all' 01
to fall: fallen 02 fallen 01
comb: kam 02 kam 01
to catch: fangen 02 fangen 01
edge: kant 02 kant 02
paddock: kamp 02 kamp 02
sound: klang 02 klank 02
land: land 02 land 02
long: lang 02 lank 02
cherry: kars 03 ka's 01
cart: kar 03 karre 04
work: wark 03 woark (14)
wharf: warf(t) 03 woarf (14)
church: kark 03 koarke (14)
part: part 03 deel --
market: markt 03 moark (14)
mountain: barg 03 boarg (14)
piglet: farken 03 foarken (14)
color/paint: farv(') 03 foarve (14)
waggon: wagen 08 wag'n 03
to come: kamen 08 kommen (??)
open: apen 08 lös (??) "open" 11 is also used
to cook: kaken 08 kokken (??)
drive,ride: faart 08 jag'n 03 fören
to complain: klagen 08 klag'n 03
deed: daad 08 dååd (15) not sure about the "posh"
part
ape,monkey: aap 08 aap 03 possible Dutch influence
to bathe: baden 08 baden 08
evening: avend 08 åmend (15)
moon, month: maand 08 måne (16), måånd (16)
sheep: schaap 08 schååp (15)
often: faken 08 fake 03 possible Dutch influence
pole, post: paal 08 poal (16)
(pea) pod: paal 08 pölle (??)
down(ward): daal 08 dale 08
to stand: staan 08 stoan (16)
train,track: baan 08 baan 03 possible Dutch influence
to dwell: wanen 08 wonnen (??) possible Dutch
influence
done: daan 08 (e)dåån (15) the e is sometimes
prepended
state: staat 08 stååt (15)
to let: laten 08 låten (15)
late: laat 08 late 03
pair,couple: paar 08 poar 14
beard: baard 08 board 14
fog: daak 08 mist Dutch loan?
to make: maken 08 maken 03
messengers: baden 08 ?
steel: staal 08 stoal (16)
boss: baas 08 baas 03
hare: haas 09 hazen 03
days: daag' 09 dage 03
lady: daam' 09 ? I always use "frau(e)"
messenger: baad' 09 ?
complaint: klaag' 09 klach' 01
coal: kaal(') 08/09 kol'n (??)
name: naam(') 08/09 naam 03 Dutch influence
so: soo 10/sou 12 soo 11
dead: dood 10/doud 12 dood 11
red: rood 10/roud 12 rood 11
bean: boon' 11/boun' 13 bone 11
merely: bloots 11/blouts 13 alenig -- sometimes "bloots"
11
right away: fourts 12 foorts 11
boat: bout 12 boot 11
book: bouk 12 book (17)
cake: kouken 12 koken (17)
bread: broud 12 stute ?? sometimes brood 11
cabbage: koul 12 kool 11
plumb: lout 12 lood 11
dream: droum 12 droum 12
tree: boum 12 boom 11
school: schoul 12/13 schole (17)
eye: oog 11/oug 13 oge 11
great: groot 11/grout 13 groot 11
success: spoud' 13 succes --
brine: loug' 13 ?
----------
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Standardization
Kent Randau wrote:
> I object to the idea that the special characters in Swedish, å, ä, ö
> are mere accented vowels. To a native Swedish speaker those
> characters are very much their own letters representing it's own
> sound. The omission in email-adress has nothing to do with those
> letters being "accents". They are replaced by the most similar
> international standard letter, i.e. a and o.
I can relate to this very well. What to some people (i.e., those whose
languages don't have them, especially English speakers) look like some other
letters with bits added to them are to most native speakers letters in their
own right. Hence a sense of being disrespected when the English language
media -- with the exception of a few "high-brow" publications -- routinely
ignore "accented" letters of the Roman alphabet even though they have them at
their disposal. They simply won't bother, consider it superfluous foreign
stuff. One person told me, "It would only confuse the readers." Why?
Because they aren't used to them appearing in print!
Henry, thanks for your feed-back.
Thanks also for the tabs, even though they confuse my software, because it's
default tabs are set so that some of the lines go too far over right. (That's
why I never use tabs in email messages.)
You wrote:
> I added 14, 15, 16 and 17. I'm not sure how to explain how to pronounce
> them, so I'll leave that to a later date, but I added the numbers, so I
> can
> tag
> the words that share the same sound, yet are different from the others.
> that: dat 01 daet (??) sounds like "that"
[æ], I suppose. That might be an additional phoneme.
> work: wark 03 woark (14)
> wharf: warf(t) 03 woarf (14)
> church: kark 03 koarke (14)
> part: part 03 deel --
> market: markt 03 moark (14)
> mountain: barg 03 boarg (14)
> piglet: farken 03 foarken (14)
> color/paint: farv(') 03 foarve (14)
Your 14 is not the output of a single but of two /åår/; thus there is no 14.
Note that all the words with 14 have the sequence _ar_. I assume that the
final [a] sound in the sequence is the phonetic output of /r/.
The difference in our two dialects is that where I have /ar/ you have /åår/,
hence _kark_ [ka:k] vs _koark_ [kQ:Ak] (or is it [kQ:Ark], i.e., is the /r/
sounded as [r]?). We have the sound sequence [Q:A] also:
> pair,couple: paar 08 poar 14
> beard: baard 08 board 14
So it's simply 08 followed by /r/.
> deed: daad 08 dååd (15) not sure about the "posh"
> ape,monkey: aap 08 aap 03 possible Dutch influence
> to bathe: baden 08 baden 08
> evening: avend 08 åmend (15)
> moon, month: maand 08 måne (16), måånd (16)
> sheep: schaap 08 schååp (15)
> often: faken 08 fake 03 possible Dutch influence
> pole, post: paal 08 poal (16)
> (pea) pod: paal 08 pölle (??)
> down(ward): daal 08 dale 08
> to stand: staan 08 stoan (16)
> train,track: baan 08 baan 03 possible Dutch influence
> to dwell: wanen 08 wonnen (??) possible Dutch
> influence
> done: daan 08 (e)dåån (15) the e is sometimes
> prepended
> state: staat 08 stååt (15)
> to let: laten 08 låten (15)
> late: laat 08 late 03
Your 15 is superfluous. It's actually 08. All the words in my dialect
indicated by "08" have this [Q:] sound that you write as "åå". The difference
are those words where I have 08 ([Q:]) and you have 03 ([a:]). In other
words, where I have 08, you have either 08 or 03. You assume that those with
03 are Dutch loans (since this is the sound of _aap_ in Standard Dutch).
Whether this is true or not, the fact is that your dialect has this additional
phoneme.
> to bathe: baden 08 baden 08
My 08 is the [Q:] sound (your "å"), but you write "baden". Is this the back
rounded sound (08) or the sound in Standard Dutch -baden_ (03 [a:])?
I do not know what sound 16 is and if it's really a separate phoneme or an
allphone. I'd need to see more words with this sound.
> book: bouk 12 book (17)
> cake: kouken 12 koken (17)
> school: schoul 12/13 schole (17)
How is your 17 different from 10 [(o:]) and 12 ([oU])?
> fog: daak 08 mist Dutch loan?
We have _Mist_ [mIs(t)] too (not to be confused with _Mist_ [mIs(t)] ~ _Mest_
[mEs(t)] 'dung', 'muck'!). _Daak_ [dQ:k] usually refers to 'fog' and may be
interchangeable with _Nevel_ [ne:vl] ~ [nE:vl] ~ [ne:bl] ~ [nE:bl], while
_Mist_ refers to 'mist' or 'haze' (> _mistig_ ['mIstIC] 'misty', 'hazy').
Gröötnissen,
Reinhard/Ron
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