LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.AUG.2000 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Ted Harding <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.AUG.2000 (04) [E]

Hi Ron,

A response to your quesry.

Best wishes,
Ted.

On 17-Aug-00 Lowlands-L wrote:
> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Reading through "Hark-Ye!" in Sandy's "Previews"
> (http://scotstext.org/Factual/Sermons/harkye.asp, see LL-L: "Online
> resources" LOWLANDS-L, 17.AUG.2000 (01) [E/S]) during my second
> breakfast break, I once again stumbled across the Scots word
_couthie_
> or _couthy_ (_It wis the guid auld Doric; it wis their ain couthy
> words._).
>
> Of course, my assumption is that it is based on *_couth_, the
> theoretically existing opposite of _uncouth_ in English.
> [snip]
> Now my question:
>
> I know that, as indicated in a few dictionaries, _couth_ in the
senses
> of 'knowledgeable' and 'suave' is a fairly recent back-formation of
> _uncouth_.
> But is _couth_ in any English or Scots dialect still seriously used
as
> the opposite of _uncouth_, namely in the original sense "(socially)
> appropriate" < "(socially) recognized" < "in accordance with known
> customs" < Old English _cuð_ (< _cunð_) 'known', which must be
related
> to Scots _ken_ 'to know', Low Saxon (Low German) _kennen_ 'to know',
> and Low Saxon _kunnd_ ~ _kunnt_ past participle of _könen_ 'to be
able
> to"(?)?

"Couthie" is commonly used especially in E/NE Scotland in its own right
and in its positive sense (meaning much what the English would mean
by "nice"), and would seem to go back a long way.

The questions Ron raises are summed up by the "Concise Scots
Dictionary":

Couth [adj] 1 = couth, known (14-16c.), 2 = couthie 1 (18-19c.)

Couthie [adj] 1 (of persons) agreeable, sociable, friendly etc (18c.-)
  2 (of places or things) comfortable, snug, neat; pleasant, agreeable
    (18c.-)

Etymology: Middle English; Old English "cuð" , past participle of
"can"3

The "can3" entry is a bit obscure to me:

can3 [vb past] [also double past c(o)uth] (14-16c.) culd etc (16-17c.)
(verse) did (14-18c.): "to Parys can he ga" [originally a substitution
for Middle English "gan", past tense of "gin" (auxiliary verb).

I'm also reminded of a quite common usage by Belgian French-speakers
(but rarely French ones) of "gentil" in much the same sense.

Whereas Belgians and French would agree on using "gentil" for a person
(much as the English would use "nice" -- socially agreeable), the Bs
especially use it more abstractly for "nice" in the sense of "neat" or
"well-posed" and the like: "une gentille solution" (e.g. to a
mathematical problem -- "a nice solution, a nice answer") or they might even
"te poser un problème bien gentil" (set you a nice little problem).

Not forgetting of course "agreeable" and "agréable" < "agréer" (accept)
and "agréer à quelqu'un" (to please someone).

An interesting mingling of overlapping concepts and at the same time of
overlapping words, where the concepts each attract several words,
and the words each attract several concepts.

Ted.

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E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
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Date: 17-Aug-00                                       Time: 23:22:26
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