LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 25.FEB.2000 (03) [E]

Fri Feb 25 17:07:01 UTC 2000

 =======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.FEB.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
 =======================================================================

From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel [gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu]
Subject: LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2000 (02) [E]

Roger Thijs wrote:

> Afrikaans and Dutch are __different languages__. Though the morphology is
> still similar enough for that people can read each other's written language
> relatively easely, and after a few hours can tune their ears to the way the
> other speaks.

Though I realize that Afrikaans and Dutch are different languages,
it is also my experience that to my Dutch ears no other language
is as easy to follow (without training) as Afrikaans; even Frisian,
Gronings, Flemish dialects, to name a few, are much harder.  We
have an Afrikaans speaking visitor here right now, and we started
conversing without any problem without requiring a few hours of
tuning.

Gustaaf

----------

From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2000 (02) [E]

> From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
> Subject: Language policies
> Roger wrote:
> > the French do not take them seriously (Picard and Zazi (du metro) are
> similar language phenomena for them)<
> There was a  film by Louis Malle called "Zazie dans le Métro" but that's
as
> close as I can get. May I ask for clarification?

I was refering to "Zazie dans le métro" by Raymond Queneau, Gallimard, 1959
(several reprints, still in te shops as pocket book). We had to read the
book at middle school (I was 17 at the time, in the OLV College in
Tongeren), and it actually was our only "official" contact with a variant of
French (other than medieval French, as e.g. the French of F. Villon).
"Walloon" was not mentioned in the program, and this considering that the
Walloon language border (Liers, Milmort, Roccourt, Glons) is just 5 miles
(7.5 km) South of Tongeren. School programs are clearly drafted by people in
Brussels, who absolutely want to get uniformity and who are blind for the
values to be discovered locally in the area.

Zazie has a vocabulary that is colored with slang. A sample:

- Zazie, déclare Gabriel en prenant un air majestueux trouvé sans peine dans
son répertoire, si ça te plaît de voir vraiement les Invalides et le tombeau
véritable du vrai Napoléon, je t'y conduirai.
- Napoléon mon cul, réplique Zazie. Il m'intéresse __pas__ du tout, cet
enflé, avec son chapeau à la con.
- Qu'est-ce qui t'intéresse alors?
Zazie répond __pas__.
- Oui, dit Charles avec une gentillesse inattendue, qu'est-se qui
t'intéresse?
- Le métro.

PS Did you notice the __ne...pas__ is reduced to just __pas__ ? (for once it
are not typing errors of mine)

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2000 (02) [E]

Ron,

I would agree that the French view is probably an extreme view of the
position taken in most Western European countries, certainly with
relation
to the perceived need for minority language revival.

I might briefly point to two minor differences. Firstly, it cannot be
overstated that the French language is very much part of the French
national
ethic (or certainly seems to be considered so by the establishment),
hence
its vehement "defence" of French against the forces of Anglicisms.
Secondly,
most minority languages develop initially regionally, very often as
part of
a regional identity; France has a very centralised government which
means
even sympathetic regional authorities find it hard to get minority
languages
off the ground there. This is in marked contrast to Spain, which is
similar
to France in that it has its own academy and an establishment opposed
to
Anglicisms (or, far worse, Americanisms!), but where minority languages
have
enjoyed remarkable success mainly because of the level of autonomy
enjoyed
by each of the Spanish regions.

This is theory should be good news for Scots in the UK. However, it can
work
the other way. It is generally accepted, for example, that the Labour
party
(which has a massive majority in the UK parliament and is senior
partner of
the governing coalition in Scotland) views the Scots case with some
disdain,
fearing perhaps a real "revival" of national identity based on it
(whereas
such a revival would not be possible based on Gaelic). The recent vote
on a
Scots question in the census (without wishing to state any personal
preference in that debate) indicated that all the established British
parties had little time for Scots, as they opposed it en bloc.

As a side point, while I agree that many Germans do not believe in or
see
the need for minority languages, the only case I remember of a
German-speaker vehemently defending his language by stating his
opposition
to Anglicisms to me was in the Tyrol. This particular Austrian, for
example,
used "Schneebrett" for "snowboard"! But I am veering slightly from the
point...

Best,
-------------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
"JOY - Jesus, Others, You"

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Ian wrote:

> As a side point, while I agree that many Germans do not believe in or
> see
> the need for minority languages, the only case I remember of a
> German-speaker vehemently defending his language by stating his
> opposition
> to Anglicisms to me was in the Tyrol. This particular Austrian, for
> example,
> used "Schneebrett" for "snowboard"! But I am veering slightly from the
> point...

Ian, it is my impression that in this regard you would encounter many
different attitudes in Germany and probably throughout the German-speaking
areas if you looked farther afield.  These range from extreme purism to
deliberate Anglicization.  Detesting the flood of English (and other foreign)
words or in fact *any* new foreign word into German tends to be found mostly
among the elderly, especially among those who know no or little English and
feel threatened by rapidly developing L2 English proficiency in their
communities.*  At the other extreme, some seem to feel it is "cool" to use as
many English words as possible, including those based on English verbs (e.g.,
_ausflippen_ 'to flip out'), even where there are perfectly fine and
well-established German equivalents, and I suppose it also gives them an
opportunity to show off their supposed English proficiency.  I guess it is
this latter camp that is responsible for pseudo-English loanwords, such as
_Handy_ for 'cell phone'.  Most people are somewhere in between those two
extremes, mostly just going with the flow, perhaps not always being able to
tell what is a new word and where it came from.  However, let it be said that
for many neologisms there are new German alternatives to English loanwords,
and thus there are choices, such as _Schneebrett_ ("snowboard") vs
_Snowboard_, _Spiegelplatte_ ("mirror disk") vs _CD_ or _Compact Disk_, or
_Rechner_ ("computer") vs _Computer_, _Festplatte_ ("firm disk") vs _Hard
Drive_.  It is my impression that using English loanwords is not necessarily
considered more sophisticated by most.  I understand that most German speakers
feel that using too many loanwords is faddish and foppish and probably a cover
for one's poor German proficiency (perhaps similar to the perception of the
frequent use of French words and expressions in the 17th and 18th centuries).
I don't think there would be terribly much support for a German equivalent of
the mentioned French and Spanish academies or the "language policing" actions
in the post-Soviet Baltic countries, certainly not if their views and methods
were as extreme.  It may also be that such extremes of centralized language
control are too reminiscent of a similar situation during the Nazi era with
it's efforts to "clean" not only the nation but also its language.

* Apparently, there are also degrees of acceptibility of the pronunciation of
English loanwords, depending upon social context.  Close English approximation
may not always be the best choice, while actual German reading of English
words is likely to be perceived as ignorant.  I remember a visit to an
icecream stall at the beachwalk in Travemünde at the Baltic Sea coast during a
visit to Germany.  Among the icecream flavors listed was "Maple-Walnut"
written in English (rather than "Ahorn(sirup)-Walnuss" in German).  After I
had ordered that flavor, the middle-aged salesperson stared at me, obviously
confused by my "accent"-free German in contradiction to my English
pronunciation of the icecream flavor.  "Sowas versteh' ich nich'. So wird hier
nich' geredet" ("I don't understand a thing like that. We don't talk like that
around here."), she said indignant with her North German "accent," "Das heiß'
['ma:ple 'valnUt]!" ("It's called ['ma:ple 'valnUt] (mahpluh vulnoot)!").
What could I do but apologize?  I would not have been admonished had I been
identified as a foreigner.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =======================================================================