LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 11.JUL.2000 (03) [S]

Tue Jul 11 20:00:22 UTC 2000

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From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" 24.JUN.2000 (03) [S]

Sandy wrate:

>But whan ye listens ti Scots spaekers, ye canna as aesy cast the praisent
>historic aby as a colloquialism - it's aawhare in spoken Scots nairative!
>What John's sayin is that the praisent historic is a naitral tense in
>Scots, no juist the demaen o hoors an hallanshakars, an in nairative (eg
>biographical, fictional or reportage) could, an mibbie whiles should, be
>uized bi the writer in the makarlike register, no juist characters that's
>perceived as spaekin in a colloquial register.
>
>The praisent historic is uized colloquially in Scots but ti clessify it as
>colloquial (or "mair colloquial") than ither tenses is a mistak brocht on
>bi the fack that maist traditional writers haes aye taen ower muckle o
>their gremmar ower fae the English an sae the Scots praisent historic forms
>
>is that sindle seen in Scots writin that fowk starts ti think it's no fit
>for daecent writin, whan in fack it's writin that tines it whaur it's nott
>that's no fit.

Ay - I dout this wey o leukin at Scots clecks a veicious circle at writers
canna get oot o. Gin thay write uisin naitural Scots forms, the creitics
taks this ti be a colloquial register an says that's aa Scots can dae,
cause the'r nae examples o it bein uised onie ither wey. Gin thay uise
English gremmar, the creitics recognises at this is airtifeicial an thay
micht as weel uise English. Whit the creitics winna allou is at the likes o
the historic present, singular verbs efter plural nouns, etc, is juist the
wey at Scots wirks, an onie wey o writin maun be foondit on it, gin it's no
ti be airtifeicial.
>
>
>Lattin alane the infinitives, ye see that Gray uizes the praisent historic
>consistent for his ornar nairative, syne switches ti the preterite efter
>the time-preposition "afore". This pits the cup o tae an the finndin o some
>
>place ti pit the hen in a separate timeline that the reader'll perceive as
>a aside fae the main story aboot the hen - A lull afore the storm, A'm like
>
>ti think, fae the readin o'd!

In fact, tho, Gray disna uise the historic present forordinar - he uises a
lot mair preterites, gaun intae historic presents nou an than, e.g:

"Dan we hed a look fir wir hoose-brakker agen. Here wis da fiend won apo da
skelf whaar Kirsie keeps her bakin things. Trath, tinks I, A'll hae her
noo, an recks fir me aald soo'waster, bringin him doon wi vengeance richt
apo da tap o her. Bit you'll no hinder me, whin I got me een an whiskers
cleared o krem o tarter an karvie seeds (it wis rattlin aboot da hoose laek
a hail shooer), ta fin at I wis only strukken da place whaar da haethin hed
been, so, whin da clood o flooer settled, I gets a glimpse o her reesslin
among me papers i da bookpress, tryin ta git a fittin on 'Social Reform' an
at da sam time rivin da 'Life o Gladstons' an da 'Saints Rest' jo"st in
ribbons."

This aa soonds naitural Shetlandic ti me.
>
>As lang as ye'r no thinkin on elegant variation as a "dae what ye like"
>formula! Imagine Gray's piece wi the tenses switched atween timelines:
>
>"*So I grip an kerrie her (a hen) ta da hoose yun sam wye, an git Kirsie ta
>
>faetch me a kishie ta set her atil afore I gits a cup o tae, an fins some
>wye ta stowe her, whaar shui widna tuilie wi da aald eens."

Hing on a meenutie here, Sandy, I wis speakin aboot varyin atween historic
(-s) presents and preterites - I wisna thinkin on ordinar present forms
like 'grip' an 'kerrie' - thay fairly soond wrang, richt eneuch. But 'I
grippit an kerried her' or 'I grips an kerries her' is baith aa richt.
>
>Richt or wrang? Wrang! Ye'll notice what the differ is, an aa: in the
>sentence Gray wrote, ye'll notice that the pynt o the praisent historic is
>that it describes deeds that's actually accomplished: the listener/reader
>can tak it that his did lift the hen an cairy it inti the hoose, for
>example. Efter the "afore" he's describin past _intentions_ an the praisent
>
>historic isna richt for this: it's no estaiblished yet that he _wull_ hae a
>
>cup o tae or finnd a place ti staw the hen afore the hen starts up throu
>the ruif an he haes ti awa efter it again! What Gray's written here isna
>juist a mixtur-maxter o tenses - he mair or less canna wale the tenses ony
>ither wey and caa it guid Shetlandic (athoot aither chyngin the sentence's
>sel or its ettle).

Ay, I think this is richt eneuch. Houaniver, he coud hae uised preterites
aa the wey an still no soondit wrang - but it wadna haed the same effect.

"So I grippit an kerried her (a hen) ta da hoose yun sam wye, an got Kirsie ta
faetch me a kishie ta set her atil afore I got a cup o tae, an fan some
wye ta stowe her, whaar shui widna tuilie wi da aald eens."

Soonds aaricht - it juist disna hae the virr o the oreiginal.

"So I grips an kerries her (a hen) ta da hoose yun sam wye, an gits Kirsie ta
faetch me a kishie ta set her atil afore I gits a cup o tae, an fins some
wye ta stowe her, whaar shui widna tuilie wi da aald eens."

Again, I dinna think this is actually wrang, the wey at 'I grip an kerrie
her' wad be wrang; but it disna hae the subtleties at ye pyntit oot. For
example, 'gits a cup o tae' here implies at this actually happened,
whaurbyes the preterite here, like ye say, wadna necessar imply this.  I
wad say at he _can_ wale the preterite an historic (-s) present onie wey
frae a strict gremmatical pynt o view, but in fact he wales thaim ti
express his ettle - e.g. the differ atween accomplished past an intended
past; the fact at the historic present is aiblins mair _immediate_ nor the
preterite, etc.

> A wonder if in fack the praisent historic's juist like it micht be a
deive wi us no bein that uized wi seein it in writin?

Mibbie, but I dout the preterite is juist as naitural, baith in spoken an
written Scots; an the variation atween the twa (no the ordinar present,
mynd!) is pairt o whit pits ower the kynd o subtleties ye wis pyntin oot,
an maks the nairative mair interestin.

>Hivin sayed aa that, the ar a kin o "feel" ti the praisent historic, like
>in ony ither tense, that A think should tell a native spaeker when an when
>no ti write it, but it disna come naitral ti maist fowk - ye learns the
>gremmar, then ye writes!

Ay - I think this is richt. A writer like Gray, at wisna e'en tryin ti
write oniething leiterary, wad likely hae written aa thae tenses athoot
noticin thaim - he wad juist hae been tellin the story an the gremmar wad
hae come naitural-like. In mair deleiberate writin, standard English is
mair like ti scomfish the naitural strynds o the Scots. It's cause o this
at ye whiles get the best Shetland or Scots gremmar in non-leiterary prose
at somebodie's juist rattelt aff, an the stechiest in prose at's tryin ti
be leiterary. I think the only wey ti get roond this is ti document thae
strynds, sae at conscious writin comes ti be consciousness o the Scots
strynds, an the wey at the standard English anes is apt tae influence thaim
- a bittie like you wis daein wi Gray.

(I'm a bittie ahint-haund wi this - I'v juist been awa, an I'm suin gaun
awa again.)

John M. Tait.

----------

From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" 27.JUN.2000 (04) [S]

Andy wrate:
>
>Anent wir raicent ongauns aboot gremmar.
>Here's a wee bittie that micht could be o interest:
>
>Taen fae:
>Scottish Accents and Dialects bi A.J. Aitken
>Language in the British Isles, Peter Trugill (Ed.)
>
>p.104-105
>
>The syntax of verbs differs from SE:
>
>Indicative: They say he's feart (/firt/ 'scared')
>                     Thae laddies says he's feart
>                     Them that says he's feart
>                     They were feart
>Habitual: Every time I sees him I aye thinks that
>Narrative: 'Heh! Wullie!' he shouts and belts aff efter him

Coorse, i modren colloquial as fornent tradeitional Scots, ye coud git
'thay wis feart' tae - but no 'thay says he's feart' (except i the historic
present, i coorse).

The 'habitual' ane here is interestin - this is I think whit Sandy (wis it)
caad a 'proverb tense' or somethin - at onie rate, it's the ane ye for
uisual git in proverbs an sic, an it's uisfu ti sinder this uiss frae the
historic present, at Aitken caas the nairative uiss. This uiss seems ti be
common in colloquial English sayins as weel - e.g. 'Sometimes I sits and
thinks and sometimes I just sits'.

I think Sandy's brack-doun o the uiss o the historic present is juist the
kind o thing at's nott for Scots writin - bein awaur o the possibeilities o
expression i the leid. This is whit wey it's nae uiss ti juist follae
English gremmar - ye micht as weel write English.

John M. Tait.

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