LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" LOWLANDS-L, 19.JUL.2000 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUL.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" LOWLANDS-L, 18.JUL.2000 (01) [E]

Dear all,

Pepijn and Henry conversed:

> >This is, sadly, the view that most Dutch people
> >have, even a lot of native Low-Saxon speakers. How
> >'bout that, for indoctrination... Naturally, it's
> >because Dutch is the standard language in the
> >Netherlands, but I wonder, how much Low-Saxon
> >influence is there in Dutch? If it weren't for
> >Dutch being the standard, you might as well here
> >people saying that Dutch was just some type of
> >weird Low-Saxon ;)

This is an interesting assertion. As I've said, I grew
up partially in Cornwall, which is Celtic area with a
language close to Breton and Welsh and an identity to
match. I consider myself Cornish as well as Irish.
Cornish nationalism is a potent force here, and all
Cornish people feel at least 'ethnically' different to
the English: there are strong separatist sympathies,
especially in the the regions of Penwith and Kerrier
which were the last areas where the Cornish language
was spoken as a vernacular (and still is to a certain
small degree).

However, the relevance here was the absurd lengths
many Cornish went to to reconcile themselves to the
fact that Cornwall was (and still is) effectively an
over-abused colony of England. Rather than see
Cornwall as a "conquered country" beaten and broken,
some of the local 'characters' developed bizarre
theories that enabled them to claim Cornwall's woeful
position as in fact a Cornish victory over the
English.

For example, a favourite one - which evidently dated
from the 'race politics' of the 19th Century - was
that as the English were 'racially' Celts (based on
the proviso that when the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain
in the 6th Century the local populations absorbed them
so that, despite losing the British language, the
English still had "British blood coursing through
their veins" and were therefore 75% 'racially' Celtic)
and as the Cornish - like the Welsh, Irish et al -
were Celts proper (i.e., 100% Celts), they were
'racially superior' to the 'mongrel English'.
Completely discredited and ridiculous (not to say
offensive too) today, but nonetheless a highly popular
view in Cornwall in the 19th Century of Social
Darwinism.

Another one was slightly less dubious: it claimed that
yes, Cornwall had been absorbed by England, but that
Cornwall was the first county of England, i.e., the
first one would reach on a boat from the Atlantic -
and therefore the most important. Clearly this was an
attempt to talk up Cornwall's importance in the scheme
of things, neatly bypassing the reality of Cornwall as
an oppressed peripheral colony by making it appear as
the most important part of Britain. This was a
favourite during the two World Wars, and generally
comes to the fore when there is a resurgence of
'British' patriotism.

A further example that is still quoted today is the
ideal of "losing the war but winning the peace". This
is based on the assertion that, even if Cornwall has
been absorbed into England, and even if the Cornish
language and Celtic culture has been lost, this
matters little because the Cornish - unbeknownst to
the 'ruling English' - still know deep down that they
are not English and therefore have the power to mock
the ignorant English, thereby "winning the peace" that
attempted to extirpate Cornish national identity. Once
again, another example of the oppressed conning
themselves into believing in the triumph of failure,
finding comfort in the mistaken belief that defeat is
nonetheless a moral victory.

Similarly, many Cornish talk of "conning the English"
(and it is a devilishly enjoyable business I must
admit) in the sense that they love ripping off English
tourists who come to Cornwall in the Summer. To their
faces they bow, scrap and obey, but behind their backs
the Cornish rip the English off with ephemera and
abuse them sotto voce. I once heard a justification
along the lines of "We don't like the English. We
don't want them in Cornwall. But if they do come, they
should at least bring plenty of money so we can skank
them." Another example of the "winning the peace"
motif.

The reason I give these examples is that they
represent the often quite painful spectacle of a
minority culture which has been colonised by a
neighbour attempting to come to terms with their
slavery. The idea of triumph of failure is an
important one to the oppressed group: it gives morale
a boost, keeps them from protesting and makes sure
that they colloborate to the best of their abilities.
I always find it unbearable when I see images of
native Americans and Canadians having to put on dances
for tourists or having to use their skills to create
tacky ephemera based on racial stereotypes of the "Red
Indian brave". I find it so degrading.

As a Cornish nationalist, I used to dread the Summer
season, when English tourists would flock to Cornwall.
It revealed all that awful about my country: whoring
one's culture to put food on the table.
Understandable, but I could never understand why
people never took a stand against and attempt to
retain some dignity. Indeed, most Cornish citizens
seemed resigned to the tourist industry even though
they hated it. They hated the abuse and the waving of
English flags; they hated the cultural imperialism of
English tourists who claimed Cornwall for England;
they hated the servility and having to make national
self-esteem dormant.

Sadly this seems to be the lot of many minority
cultures in western Europe. I'm sure Plautdietschers,
Frisians, Scots, Limburgers et al have had the same
experiences and I would like to hear about them. THis
is a facet of being a minority culture which is
perhaps the hardest to swallow. I seem to remember
watching a documentary on the west Frisians a decade
or so ago which included a small segment on the
Plautdietschers: it showed them in stereotypically
tourist fashion, carving wood souvenirs and showing
off their national costumes. It seems to me that no
culture is safe from this ephemeralisation, this
cheapening that goes in tandem with globalisation,
that makes a knowledge of tourist English and High
German essential.

Please give me your thoughts on the matter as
Lowlanders - I would be interested to hear how Lowland
cultures have been affected by the above.

> The outcome of the processes of the formation of
> standard languages (which includes selection of
> elements from different varieties and codification
> of rules) is historically contingent. If you put
> something different in (a different political
> situation, a different attitude of the speakers
> towards their language), the outcome is different.

Indeed. And it is perhaps ironic that many literary
standards have in fact never been anyone's spoken
language, being as they often are composites as you
describe. Many times the literary standard actually
abolishes some of the more variant or peculiar
elements of the local languages from which it is
drawn. For example, Euskara (Basque) is actually seven
mutually incomprehensible languages, and the standard
has been drawn from a combination of Bizkaian Euskara
and Gipuzkoan Euskara. This is understandable given
that these are the two varieties with the most
speakers. However, Zuberoa Euskara, which has only
about 16,000 speakers, maintains an aberrant phonology
quite removed from other Euskara, and has many
idiosyncratic features that are absent from other
Basque languages.

I recall vaguely reading something on the
establishment of a literary standard for West Frisian,
where elements were chosen on the basis of difference
from Dutch. Is this correct? If so, it sounds a good
idea. Does anyone have any information on so-called
'Town Frisian' which was a Dutch-Frisian compromise
language (isn't that a creole?) spoken in the urban
areas of Fryslan. Is it still extant? I read of it in
W B Lockwood's 'A Panorama of Indo-European Languages'
(1972) in which he mentions 'Town Frisian' as being a
modern development, presumably as a result of the
Hollandising policies in Fryslan prior to 1955 when
Frisian was made official.

> Strictly linguistically spoken, there is no reason
> that the Lowland dialects spoken some 500 years ago
> in the area that we now call the Netherlands and
> Belgium couldn't be dialects of German.  Look at the
> case of Swiss German in the German speaking cantons
> of Switzerland.  It's just a matter of accepting
> something as a standard language, in this case
> closely related, yet unmistakably different in
> several respects.

It is of course pertinent to note that Schwyzertuutsch
is perhaps the only German 'variety' (I use the term
reluctantly as anyone who has read Schwyzertuutsch
attempting to analyse it as High German will
understand) whose use is actually INCREASING, in
contrast to languages such as Bavarian which are
decreasing as High German is propogated through the
media. I think the situation is the same of
Letzebuergesch, although I can't be certain. Does
anyone have any information?

Another aspect I am interested in with regards to
Frisian is whether standard West Frisian has had any
discernible effect on other forms of Frisian such as
East Frisian and North Frisian. I'm aware they do not
share a continuum of territory, but surely West
Frisian language television can be picked up in Fohr
and Niebull? I should draw your attention to a report
on Newsnight (a BBC current affairs programme
broadcast here at 10:30 pm Monday to Friday) which
claimed that (in a fit of self-aggrandisement)
Newsnight had some 50,000 viewers in the Netherlands
(I can't be sure of the exact figure, but I think it
was 50,000). Surely then Frisian coverage should be
able to reach North Frisian areas, right?

> What I really wanted to say, though, I think there's
> is nothing wrong with perceiving Low Saxon as a
> 'weird kind of Dutch', as long as there are no
> prejudicial judgements attached to it, in other
> words, as long as it remains the key to
> understanding the language.

Well, this is the problem of course. I've yet to meet
an English person who doesn't denigrate Lallans as
'aberrant English' and I think most English -
imperialist as they are (generalisation but
nonetheless valid) - would find it laughable if you
were to refer to Lallans as a separate language with
its own literature and writing culture. It appears to
be part of the nature of larger cultures and languages
to denigrate and make prejudicial judgements on
minority counterparts, particularly here in western
Europe.

Further, I would argue that as the assertion "Low
Saxon is a weird kind of Dutch" is entirely based on
stereotypical ideas of what Dutch and what Low Saxon
should sound like and on the position and huge ego of
Dutch as the superior language, and so climbing into
bed with the people who use such flawed phraseology
should be discouraged. In my experience (and as I have
mentioned before) larger cultures take it for granted
that their counterparts with less speakers will let
such familiar imperialism pass. However, if the tables
are reversed - as you mentioned when you referred to
Dutch as a "weird kind of Low Saxon" (wonderful
assertion, by the way) - I doubt a Dutch speaker would
be so forgiving. Indeed, I'm sure she or he would be
downright offended. This is of course the paradigm;
one rule for the oppressed, and another one (more
beneficial in practice) to the oppressor.

It was of course taken for granted that you would not
admonish the conversant for the slur. That's part and
parcel of cultural imperialism - that the larger
culture is bellicose and truculent, and that the
minority culture will take the abuse and know its
place. I feel that if Lowlanders seek to get any
recognition for their language beyond what has already
been achieved you must all stop accepting the abuse
and the so-called 'innocent ignorance' and take a
stand. Otherwise, you just might find your cultures
"weird kinded" out of existence.

In mitigation you may be interested in a personal
anecdote in relation to Dutch: my mother is a fluent
High German speaker and we often get into discussions
about mutual comprehension with myself usually arguing
as a Celtic speaker and my mother from her experience
of German, Swedish etc. One day I pointed out that
scholars often subsume Dutch and German into
"Netherlandic-German" because of the intimate
similarities between the two. I questioned this on the
basis of orthography (foolish, I know, but I'm just
too polemic for my own good). She laughed and said
that there were no discernible differences between
German and Dutch, except that "Dutch is German with
every vowel doubled." So it seems Dutch is a "weird
kind" of High German too! =)

Anyway, thanks for your time, patience and effort,

Criostoir.

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