LL-L: "Language maintenance" (was "Plautdietsch", "Mutual comprehension", "Language politics") LOWLANDS-L, 20.JUL.2000 (03) [E/S]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.JUL.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Plautdietsch" LOWLANDS-L, 13.JUL.2000 (01) [E]

Andy wrate:

>It was originally, Some older people in the country areas still speak it.
>'middle' aged people tend to have a passive knowledge, younger people can
>no longer understand it. Unfortunately not many people are intersested in
>it. Sound familiar?

I'm wonderin gin this is a bittie like haein fowk comin ti Scotland at coud
speak Scots but no English!

John.

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language politics"

> From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 18.JUL.2000 (04) [E]
>
> Sandy's quote about English law being universal may
> have been hyperbole, but it was a hyperbole born out
> of frustration, colonisation and a relationship
> enacted in 1707 against the wishes of the Scottish
> nation. Therefore his assertion still stands, and I
> add my support to his claim.

I hope I'm not being too contumacious, but although I agree with much
of
Criostoir's explanation of UK law (and also don't know enough about it
to
attempt to expand on or detract from it) I'm not actually personally
frustrated with the situation. The government's behaviour and the
nature of
the situation, whilst bizarre enough to be interesting in itself and
enough
to cause severe difficulties for anyone dealing with them, is not
really the
root of the problem with the Scots language, as I see it. There are
enough
Scots speakers in Scotland to terrify any of the vote-cherishing
political
parties into bending to their will, but they don't particularly see
their
language as anything worth making a stand for. Meanwhile, many of the
people
who do make a stand for Scots don't actually speak it but are in it for
ulterior motives - ie nationalism. However much the existence of the
language may act as a weapon for these people, they do seem to be
exposing
the language to ridicule and destroying it as a recognisable entity in
attempting to achieve their aims. Although things seem to be improving
in
some quarters in this respect, as far as I, as a native Scots speaker,
am
concerned, the government's educational policies and the activities of
such
nationalists form a two-pronged attack in alienating Scots speakers
from
their heritage.

But to keep a perspective on this, I accept that languages do die in
the
normal course of things, and perhaps the real driving force here is
something in human psychology that attracts people to the progressive,
the
respectable and the powerful aspects of available cultures. The
government
will get away with this as long as we lap it up. The fact is that
Cornish
and Norns wanted their children to learn more prestigious languages
than the
ones they themselves spoke, that's why their languages died out.
Features in
the pronounciation of the Cornish dialect of English suggest that the
Cornish weren't even content with learning the language of their
Wessexian
neighbours - they seem to have imported teachers from the east to
ensure
their children learned "the best English". And Scots speakers are happy
with
their children learning English in school. Scots language activists
have far
more to contend with than the government and its bizarre laws.

A new question: we know it can be sad when a language or some aspect of
a
culture dies out, and it can also be an intellectual loss in the
linguistic
sphere. But is there any _ethical_ reason why languages should be kept
alive
if the native speakers no longer bother with it? No people are ever
without
a language - a dying language is always replaced by another, like the
old
are replaced with the young, and probably a good thing no matter how
much
one venerates ones ancestors. Are nationalists and linguists (and other
people with political, professional or whatever reasons for keeping
languages alive) being unethical in intefering with a generation's
wishes
for their children?

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
  Things in this subloonary warld bein far frae
perfeck, 'No that bad' is the maist that mortal
man can venture tae say while here ablo.
             - Catherine P. Slater, 'Marget Pow'

----------

From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" LOWLANDS-L, 19.JUL.2000 (01) [E]

Criostoir hef skreeven:
>
> Sadly this seems to be the lot of many minority
> cultures in western Europe. I'm sure Plautdietschers,
> Frisians, Scots, Limburgers et al have had the same
> experiences and I would like to hear about them. THis
> is a facet of being a minority culture which is
> perhaps the hardest to swallow. I seem to remember
> watching a documentary on the west Frisians a decade
> or so ago which included a small segment on the
> Plautdietschers: it showed them in stereotypically
> tourist fashion, carving wood souvenirs and showing
> off their national costumes. It seems to me that no
> culture is safe from this ephemeralisation, this
> cheapening that goes in tandem with globalisation,
> that makes a knowledge of tourist English and High
> German essential.
>
> Please give me your thoughts on the matter as
> Lowlanders - I would be interested to hear how Lowland
> cultures have been affected by the above.

I get asked many times by Dutch speakers to say something in Low-Saxon.
But mostly it's not because they're interested in the language, they just want
to hear someone "talk stupid". No, I can't speak proper Dutch, I'll have to
accept that *sigh*...

Recently I've translated much of my Windows operating system on my computer
to Low-Saxon, because I couldn't find one good reason I was using it in
English or Dutch. So I went about and changed the complete directory structure
of my harddisk, internet bookmarks and any resource string in Windows I could
get my hands on to Low-Saxon. So I was quietly enjoying my own unique version
of Windows, untill I had to do a small presentation for my colleagues. I must
say it quite drew the attention... I thought they would maybe change their
minds about Low-Saxon, but afterwards I got question like why I hadn't went
one step further and also changed words like "computer". Obviously their idea
of Low-Saxon is that it is something you only use to get some laughs... But
it's just that I don't use any other words for "computer", wouldn't even know
any. Of course I could come up with a fictive word like "rekner" (compared to
German "Rechner"), but THAT would be just to get a laugh... And that's not
what I'm aming for.

> I recall vaguely reading something on the
> establishment of a literary standard for West Frisian,
> where elements were chosen on the basis of difference
> from Dutch. Is this correct? If so, it sounds a good
> idea.

Well, for mutual comprehension this might not be such a good idea,
but it sure helps in getting the meaning across that it really is a different
language. If we ever decide to establish a literary standard for Low-Saxon I
think we'll have to consider doing it like that.

> It was of course taken for granted that you would not
> admonish the conversant for the slur. That's part and
> parcel of cultural imperialism - that the larger
> culture is bellicose and truculent, and that the
> minority culture will take the abuse and know its
> place. I feel that if Lowlanders seek to get any
> recognition for their language beyond what has already
> been achieved you must all stop accepting the abuse
> and the so-called 'innocent ignorance' and take a
> stand. Otherwise, you just might find your cultures
> "weird kinded" out of existence.

I'm taking my own little stand, by using Low-Saxon for anything that it can
and should be used for. That doesn't mean I refuse to speak Dutch to
Dutch-only speakers, but it does mean that I don't use Dutch for almost
anything. I only use it sometimes when talking to my little brother and I want
to make something someone has or could have said look more stupid.

> She laughed and said that there were no discernible differences between
> German and Dutch, except that "Dutch is German with
> every vowel doubled." So it seems Dutch is a "weird
> kind" of High German too! =)

I've heard Germans say things like that too. Funny... it's the same
attitute towards Dutch, that Dutch people have towards Low-Saxon.
"I speak a more widely used language than you, so yours is just a
weird version of mine"...

Oh well, maybe I should stop complaining and get to work ;)
Good holden!

Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language maintenance

Dear Henry,

You wrote above:

> I get asked many times by Dutch speakers to say something in Low-Saxon.
> But mostly it's not because they're interested in the language, they just > want to hear someone "talk stupid". No, I can't speak proper Dutch, I'll
> have to accept that *sigh*...

You get that a lot on the German side of the border too, Henry, not only with
Low Saxon (Low German) but also with German dialects, especially the more
"exotic", i.e., least Standard-German-like ones, such as Bavarian and
Alemannic.  Yes, the underlying motivation in such situations tends to be to
get you to talk "stupid" for their amusement.  This goes hand in hand with
what the language varieties are associated with, in most cases with country
folks and "ignorant" older townsfolk, with people who "haven't gotten with the
program," an image that is fervently reinforced in the media.

Even some friends of mine who I know don't consciously want to put down the
language tend to say things that at best come across as patronizing.  One of
them recently told me how he enjoys listening to the Low Saxon news and
weather program in his car on the way to work.  He finds it incredible that in
"Platt" you get away with saying on the air things like _Tjer, Lüüd', dat is
'n Schietwedder daar buten un 'n asig Kuddelmuddel up de Autobahn_, where the
Missingsch-based, very low-prestige German "slang" equivalent in his mind
obviously was _Tja, Leute, das ist 'n Scheißwetter da draußen und 'n asiges
Kuddelmuddel auf der Autobahn_ ('Well, folks, it's shitty weather out there
and a heck of a mess on the freeway'), where "good" talk might be something
like _Ja, liebe Hörer, wir haben heute gräßliches Wetter und etliche Staue auf
der Autobahn_.  From the point of view of a Northern German speaker who
understands it somewhat but does not really know it, Low Saxon sometimes
sounds "rude" and certainly down to earth.  Many delight in this supposed
rudeness and earthiness, milk it for the sake of plain spectacle, sometimes
dotting their German "juicy" Low Saxon phrases for certain effects.  What they
don't really get is that they are passing value judgment on the basis of their
own, separate language, in their minds the "proper" language, "proper" because
it's taught in schools and is used by educated, successful people.  They don't
get that none of the expressions in that sentence is rude in Low Saxon itself.
(E.g., _Schiet_, unlike German _Scheiße_, is totally acceptable in polite
company, also meaning simply 'dirt', and preposed 'unpleasant ...'  I, who is
not prone to using offensive language, have used it on LL-L on more than one
occasion.)

When talking to me someone referred to Low Saxon as "your funny, little
language up there."  He swore he didn't mean to belittle it, though ...  Yep!
He is American and has a degree in German studies.  Need I say more?

I am sure our Limburgish- and Scots-speaking friends are used to similar
attitudes.

> I thought they would maybe change their minds about Low-Saxon, but
> afterwards I got question like why I hadn't went one step further and also > changed words like "computer". Obviously their idea of Low-Saxon is that
> it is something you only use to get some laughs...

Exactly!  They must think it's just fun and games on your part, that you have
too much time on your hands.  If a program didn't have a Dutch version and it
were their task to create one from English, would *they* try to create a Dutch
equivalent of 'computer'?  I think not.  So why suggest it it with regard to
Low Saxon?

> I've heard Germans say things like that too. Funny... it's the same
> attitute towards Dutch, that Dutch people have towards Low-Saxon.
> "I speak a more widely used language than you, so yours is just a
> weird version of mine"...

The more closely related another language seems to that of one's own, thus
"legitimate," language the less seriously one tends to take it, thinking of it
as some aberrant variety that is somehow funny in its legitimate status gained
by some freaky historical event.  Similar attitudes exist among
German-speakers vis-à-vis Yiddish ("faulty German").

> I'm taking my own little stand, by using Low-Saxon for anything that it
> can and should be used for. That doesn't mean I refuse to speak Dutch to
> Dutch-only speakers, but it does mean that I don't use Dutch for almost
> anything.

My imaginary hat off to you!  And I take it you consistently talk to known Low
Saxon speakers in your shared language (unless Dutch-only speakers are present
who would not understand fully).

What I find sad in German programs, anthologies, etc., in which the basis is
the use of Low Saxon (Low German), introductions, annotations, etc., tend to
be in German.  Also, set and directing instructions in Low Saxon dramas are
pretty much consistently written in German.  Why?!  In my current
collaboration with the jury of the Freudenthal Prize, I say and write
*everything* in Low Saxon, and a few other members do so too.

Hold Die stiev, un 'n goden Wind in Dien Sails!

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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