LL-L: "Monarchs & their realms" 03.JUN.2000 (01) [D/E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Sat Jun 3 17:06:17 UTC 2000
======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 03.JUN.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
=======================================================================
From: Ian J. L. Adkins [ian at cyberhub.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs & their realms" (was "Monarchs") LOWLANDS-L,
01.JUN.2000 (02) [E/S]
<< Just a minor thing on this point, European border posts mark each
country in the local language (e.g. "Espana", "Nederland", "France" etc.),
but on entering Germany the sign reads "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" - which
is rather difficult to fit on! Why is this? Why does it not simply say
"Deutschland" - after all, it doesn't say "Republique Francaise", merely
"France"! Maybe somebody knows. >>
My suggestion might be that it's a holdover from the Cold War, as the EU/EC
predates the fall of the communism in East Germany. The easier way about
it might have been "West Deutschland" (or is that "Westerdeutschland"? My
grammar fails me). I'm sure the political climate of the time and the DDR
were factors in the labelling of that sign. Ma twa pence, onieweys.
--Ian
---
Ian J. L. Adkins
President and CEO, The Cyberhub
ian at mail.cyberhub.co.uk
http://www.cyberhub.co.uk
----------
From: Roger Thijs [Roger.Thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (01) [E]
1. At 10:27 31/05/00 -0700, you wrote:
>From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
>Subject: Monarchs
>I once commented that the travellers who famously recorded some words of
>Crimean Gothic couldn't have been Belgians because Belgium hadn't been
>invented yet. Ron hinted that I was being pedantic.
Belgians do not necessarely come from Belgium (Julius Caesar found them
about 2000 years ago), but a little bit later several of the species werd
also found in (or banned to?) Albion, since we find them (the "BELGAE")
between AQVAE SVLIS (Bath) and VENTA (Winchester) (Ordnance Survey Map of
Roman Britain, Third Edition)
(3 sources are given for the United-Kingdom-BELGAE in the Ordnance Survey
booklet that came with the map:
- the Ptolemy map
- the Antonine Itinerary
- the Ravenna Cosmography)
On the Ptolemy map:
Brittain: ALBION (includes Scotland and Wales)
Ireland: IVERNIA
The channel: OCEANVS BRITANNICVS
(Btw there were three Venta's:
VENTA BELGARVM: Winchester (Hants),
VENTA ICENORVM: Caister St Edmunds (Norfolk) and
VENTA SILVRVM: Caerwent (Monm))
2. When people in the UK talk about Brittain, the UK .., do they include in
their mind:
- the Isle of Man
- the Channel Islands?
3. A few words about "etcetera"
Old Monarchs had long lists of titles: except for the main territories they
often listed additionally their titles referring to _parts_ of these very
same territories. Often the acquisition of these parts was a result of
historical events in which their predecessors toke an important role. But
since the list never ended, they had to stop at a cetain moment, so the
ended with "etcetera". Or was it's snobism and convenient to state at the
end of the list: "and ... of much more..."
Some of the titles must just be "pretentions" since some territories
referred to are clearly ruled by someone else.
>From a "plakkaat" of 16 pp by Charles VI from 1736 about a reorganization
of the military justice system;
It starts with (I'm giving a carriage rerturn after each title fo
readability):
-- quote:
Karel by der gratie Godts Rooms Keiser altydt vemeerder des Rycx,
Koninck van Duytslandt,
van Castillien,
van Leon,
van Aragon,
van beyde de Sicilien,
van Hierusalem,
van Hongaryen,
van Bohemien,
van Dalmatien,
van Crotien (?? printing error in the plakkaat? to be read as Croatien?),
van Servien,
van Esclavonien,
van Navarre,
van Grenade,
van Tolede,
van Valencien,
van Gallicien,
van Majorque,
van Sevillen,
van Sardaignien,
van Cordube,
van Corfique,
van Murcioe,
van Jaën,
vande Algarben,
van Algezire,
van Gibraltar,
vande Eylanden van Canarie,
vande Indien soo Orientale als Occidentale,
vande Eylanden ende vanten Lande der Zee-Oceane;
Aerts-Hertogh van Ostenryck;
Hertoge van Bourgondien,
van Lothryck,
van Brabant,
van Limbourg,
van Luxembourg,
van Geldre,
van Milanen,
van Stirien,
van Carinthien,
van Würtemberg,
van hoog ende leegh Silesien,
van Athenen,
ende van Neopatrie;
Prince van Suabe;
Marck-grave van het H. Ryck,
van Bourgau,
van Moravien,
van hoogh ende leegh Lusatien;
Grave van Habsbourg,
van Vlaenderen,
van Arthois,
van Tirol,
van Henegau,
van Namen,
van Barcelone,
van Ferrere,
van Kybourg,
van Goricie,
van Roussillon
ende van Cerdagne;
Land-graeve van Alsatien;
Marquis van Oristan ende
Grave van Goceano;
Heere vande Marche,
van Esclavonien,
van Port-Naon,
van Biscayen,
van Molines,
van Salins,
van Tripoli
ende van Mechelen,
___&c.___ ___ &c.___
Alsoo Wy noodigh geacht hebben tot onsen dienst de nationale Regimenten van
onse Nederlanden te stellen op den selven voet, ghelyck zyn onse
Keyserlycke Duytsche Regimenten, ....
--- end quote
For the prince-bishop of Liege the list was shorter:
a sample from 1524:
-- quote
Erardus van der Marck
by der genaden Godts cardinael priester der heyliger roomscher kercke des
titels sint Crisogoni,
ertsbisschop van Valence,
bisschop van Ludick,
hartoch tot Bouillon,
greve tot Loon
doen te weeten....
--- endquote
he was modest: no "etcetera",
but in 1545 we get an "etcetera":
--- quote:
Georgius van Oostenryck bij der gratie Godts bisschop tot Luyck,
hartoch tot Bouillon,
grave tot Loon __etc__,
doen kondt ende te weten....
--- endquote
in 1597 we have an efficient and concise bisshop:
--- quote:
Ernest bij Godts genade __etc__ allen dengeenen die dese onse opene briefen
sullen sien oft hooren lesen salut.
Doen conde ende te weeten eenen yegelyck dat...
--- endquote
I think the Queen of the Netherlands calls herself "Princess of Orange",
while the pricipeauté d'Orange is French since quite a while, and "vrouwe
van Diest", while Diest is a town in Belgium.
And when the Roman Catholic Church want so set a bisschop aside, the poor
one usually gets the title of a bishopric in North-Africa, that disappeared
in the Sahara desert after roman times...
Regards,
Roger
----------
From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs & their realms" (was "Monarchs") LOWLANDS-L,
01.JUN.2000 (02) [E/S]
At 19:18 01/06/00 -0700, john feather wrote:
>>If this were "1984" I would edit the record to show that I said "some of
us
>
>Brits" and/or omitted the possessive before "Virgin Queen".
I don't think anyone would expect JF to rewrite the record, but
only to refrain from rewriting history.
In "1984" they did that too, by the way.
Colin Wilson.
*********************************************************************
A met a man in a tartan sark
Colin Wilson an A speirt at him whit wis his wark
writin fae Aiberdein an he sayd that he helpit tae bigg the Ark
upon the Haughs o Cromdale
**********************************************************************
==================================END===================================
You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
as message text from the same account to
<listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
<http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
* Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
<http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
* Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================
More information about the LOWLANDS-L
mailing list