LL-L: "Grammar" (was "Morphophonology") 18.JUN.2000 (01) [E/S]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Andrew Eagle [K27 at compuserve.com]
Subject: "Morphophonology" [S]

Sandy wrate:
Subject: "Orthography"

>> From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
>> Subject: LL-L: "Orthography" LOWLANDS-L, 01.JUN.2000 (03) [E/S]
>>
>> The underlying rule - which, as Sandy points out, is natural inScots
>> spoken narrative (almost unconscious, which is probably why Scotswriters

>> do not automatically transfer it to writing, being influenced bystandard

>> English norms) is that the historic present in the first persondoes not
>> have the ordinary first person present form, but the form of thethird
>> person present. so:
>>
>> Present: I loss, he losses
>> Historic present: I losses, he losses

>This condescends on the first & third pairsons singlar, but A'v been
>leukin oot some o the mair kittle passages in ma current novel wi ither
>pairsons ti see hou A'v written them. A wonder if John or ony ither Scots
>spaekers wad like ti check this oot an see if they think it's richt? Ye
hae
>ti mind that A'm deif nou an hae ti gae on memory, it's no sae aesy ti
check oot
>what fowk dis say ony mair!

>Here a sentence A fund in third pairson plural (as weel as first singlar):

>"They turns aboot an leuks at me but A ignores them."

>Dis this soond aa richt? A'm gey shuir it is whan A compare it wi the
>alternative "They turn aboot an leuk at..." Saicont pairson's rare in
>narrative (tho the'r some hale stories written this wey in English), an A
>dinna happen ti hae onybody narratin in the plural, but A wonder if we
>could
>conjugate a reglar Scots verb like this:

<...>

Aa ma wabsteid says is:
"Where the infinitive is used for a narrative past the verb sometimes
takes the ending s even in the first person singular and after a single
 personal pronoun.

A niver sees him nou. I never see him now.
A says no tae come the-morn. I said not to come tomorrow.
Cut that oot the-nou A says. Stop that now I said.
An in we comes.  And in we came.

It soonds aaricht tae me.

<...>

>Praisent:

>A turn
>thoo turns
>he/she/it turns
>we turn
>you turn
>they turn

>Preterite:

>A turned (soonded [tVrn?] in ma dialeck)
>thoo turned
>he/she/it turned
>we turned
>you turned
>they turned

>Historic praisent:

>A turns
>thoo turns
>he/she/it turns
>we turns
>you turns
>they turns

>This aa soonds perfit whan A try some examples in ma heid (A dinna ken
"we"

>as a Scots word, sae A hae ti think wi "oo" an howp it transfers aa
>richt!):

>1. "They turns aboot an leuks at us but oo ignores them."

>2. "Ye daes yer best for fowk an see what ye gits for it."

>A dout this last ane could be sayed like this an aa:

>3. "Ye daes yer best for fowk an see what ye git for it."

>ie in example 2 the spaeker's on aboot something that's been duin in
>the past an the repercussion's in the past an aa, but in example 3
>favours wis duin in the past an the repercussion haes juist kythed
>shortsyne.
>Asweel, ye could say it in the abstrack, mair like a proverb:

>4. "Ye daes yer best for fowk an sees what ye gits for it."

>This soonds gey like the comic English phrase "You pays your money
>and you takes your choice." Aiblins they _ar_ a praisent historic in some
>English dialecks!

A tak it ye're gaun on aboot the nairative here. Thon brings up an
interestin quaisten aboot gremmar vis a vis formal or informal.

Nairative /colloquial : "They turns aboot an leuks at me but A ignores
them."
Formal (wrutten) :Thay turnt aboot an leukit at me but I ignored thaim"?
or wad thon than no be 'reportit speech' : Thay turnt aboot and leukit at
him but he ignored thaim?

A whiles canna git ma harns aboot some o thir gremmaitical concepts an
juist gang alang wi whit soonds richt. Tho whan writin 'formal' hou muckle
is 'Inglis eddication' influencin the wey A write things doun? A haed tae
teach masel tae write Scots.

A say [tVrn?] an aa. (weel its certies no an audible /t/ an A spell it
turnt <t> bein pronounced /?/ an no /d/.

Andy

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Conditional tense"

Ay, Lawlanners!

A'v been studyin on "Hislops Proverbs o Scotland" (available at ScotsteXt,
URL ablo) ti pit them inti a consistent Scots for praisentation on the new
vairsion o the ScotsteXt site (consistency will maiter mair in the new site
wi hou A'm settin the proverbs (in fack, aathing that can uize it) inti
database form sae's fowk'll can filter an finnd what proverbs they want.

A'v been wonderin aboot Hislop's uise o what seems ti be the Scots literary
conditional tense. The question is, is this a genuine Scots conditional or
is it juist Hislop daein the kin o anglicisation o Scots grammar that's
typical o traditional an even a lot o modern Scots writin? He dis dae this
kin o thing, an no aye consistent aither - for example, A'm haein ti chynge
a rowth o proverbs startin ti "He wha..." an "He that..." (tt o the
inconsistency) ti "Him that...". But his conditional tense isna sae aesy
cast aby: for ae thing, Burns uizes conditional forms that's no fund in
English (as we'v discussed on LL afore): "A'll lairn ma kin a rattlin sang,
An A saw ane an twinty, Tam." For anither, Hislop uizes the conditional
plenty in his Scots, but no in his English!

Ye micht wonder if it's mibbie better ti dae awa wi the conditional forms
aathegither (lippinin, a dout, ti the "Scots is whatever fowk says," crew),
but A dinna agree. A think that traditionally fowk likes ti say their
proverbs in as hiech a register as they can say them, in a effort ti assert
their authority, an if the conditional isna uized in ilkaday spaek, aa the
mair raeson ti lippen til't in yer proverbs!

Here a ful condescension on Hislop's uise o the conditional (forby that A'v
hippit some examples whare it maks nae odds wi the conditional - an mind
that grammatical terms isna something A ken a lot aboot! An that thir
examples uizes Hislop's traditional ad hoc orthography)...

 Conditionals wi auxiliaries seems nae different fae no-conditionals:

If it winna be a gude shoe we'll mak a bauchel o't.
If I canna do't by might I can do't wi' slight.
If a lee could hae chokit you, ye wad hae been dead langsyne.
He looks as if he could swallow a cow.
He's as stiff as if he had swallowed the poker.

Praisent conditionals uizes "be" for the copula, lattin us see that the
richt form o the verb for the praisent conditional is the infinitive:

If this be a feast, I hae been at mony.
If you be angry, claw your wame, an' cool If you be angry, sit laigh and
mease you.
If ye be na gall'd ye needna fling.
I carena whether the fire gae about the roast, or the roast gae about the
fire, if the meat be ready.
If a' be weel I'll be wyteless.
If he be na a souter, he's a gude shoe clouter.
If it be a faut it's nae ferlie. If it be ill it's as ill rused.
If strokes be gude to gie they'll be gude to tak.
If the deil be laird, ye'll be tenant.
Wyte your teeth if your tail be sma'.
Speir at Jock Thief if I be a leal man.
Ye breed o' the tod's bairns, if ane be gude, they're a' gude.
Ask the tapster if his ale be gude.
February, fill the dike, be it black or be it white; if it's white, it's
the better to like.

(tt o the inconsistency in this last ane - wad "February, fill the dike, be
it black or be it white; if it be white, it's the better to like," no be
better? An likewice "Ye breed o' the tod's bairns, if ane be gude, a' be
gude."?)

Houever, Hislop uizes no-literary (or is it juist no-English?) forms o this
an aa:

If a man's gaun down the brae ilka ane gies him a jundie.
If a'thing's true, that's nae lee.
If she was my wife I would mak a queen o' her.
Naething is ill said if it's no ill ta'en.
Ye wad mak muckle o' me if I was yours.
Before an ill wife be gude, even if she was a' turned to tongue.

The'r juist ae case o the uise o "be" athoot "if", giein a implied
conditional, tho it's no for want o opportunity:

Birk will burn be it burn drawn; sauch will sab if it were simmer sawn.

(I canna help wonderin if this wadna be better duin consistent an aa: "Birk
will burn be it burn drawn; sauch will sab be it simmer sawn.").

 Ither conditionals ye can richt see bein formed wi the infinitive:

If the laird slight the leddie his menyie will be ready.
It's a gude enough warld if it haud. If ae sheep loup the dyke, a' the rest
will follow.
If it sair me to wear, it may sair you to look at. If ony body speir at ye,
say ye dinna ken.
If that God gie the deil daurna reive.
If the badger leave his hole the tod will creep in.
If the deil find ye idle, he'll set ye to wark.
If the lift fa' the laverocks will be smoored.
Send your son to Ayr: if he do weel here, he'll do weel there.
If a gude man thrive, a' thrives wi' him.

(The like o this last ane is whare Hislop gies the gemme awa, an he uizes
it gey an aften: tho the subject o the saicont clause is in the plural he
uizes the Scots form o the verb (wi /-s/), it's juist wi obvious plurals he
anglicises bi drappin the "s". For this raeson A think A'm juistified in
caain the likes o "If marriages are made in heaven" anglicisation, an
chyngin them ti "If marriages is (or "be"?) made in hieven").

Whiles it's no clear whether Hislop ettled a conditional or juist uized a
anglicisation that could be thocht on as a Scots conditional:

If a' bowls row right. God keep ill gear out o' my hands; for if my hands
ance get it, my heart winna part wi't,- sae prayed the gude Earl of
Eglinton.

Again, tho, Hislop uizes no-literary (or no-English?) forms:

If he binds his pock she'll sit down on't. If he gies a duck he expects a
goose. If the mare has a bald face the filly will hae a blaze.

But whiles he maks a richt bourach o'd wi typical anglification (this is
important - it brings up the question o whether Hislop's uise o the
conditional is _aa_ anglification):

If marriages are made in heaven, you twa hae few friends there. He caresna
wha's bairns greet if his ain laugh.

Thir should be (dependin on whether ye uize the conditional or no,
respective):

If marriages be/is made in heaven, you twa haes few friends there. He
caresna wha's bairns greets if his ain laugh/laughs.

 Ae thing that's interestin is that in the English-langage annotations in
the beuk, Hislop _disna_ uize thir kin o conditionals, suggestin he micht
in fack see them as a featur o Scots grammar. Compare the conditionals in
thir proverbs wi thame (or want o thame) in his annotations. Tak tent
espeecially hou he disna uize the same form even whan he quotes a English
proverb:

"If the lift fa' the laverocks will be smoor'd" – Literally, if the sky
falls the larks will be smothered. "If ye be na gall'd ye needna fling." –
Synonymous with the English saying, "If the cap fits, wear it."

An in a annotation whare he juist happens ti uize "if" incidental in
English:

His love has never been very strong if it turns for a trifle.

In the ae case whare Hislop dis uize the conditional in English, the'r a
differ in the syntax (but it's like the English in question's a translate o
a French proverb):

"If 'ifs' an' 'ans' were kettles an' pans there would be nae use for
tinklers." – "Were it not for 'if' and 'but', we should all be rich
forever." - _French_.

But mind that Hislop dis uize this syntax in Scots juist ance (tho
inconsistent, as we saw):

Birk will burn be it burn drawn; sauch will sab if it were simmer sawn.

Past conditionals aye seems ti uize the plural form. For reglar preterites
this maks nae differ:

He that strikes my dog wad strike mysel if he daur'd.

Itherwice, wi singlar forms it's clear:

He looks as if the wood were fu' o' thieves.
If better were within, better wad come out.
If it werena for hope the heart would break.
If it werena for the belly the back wad wear gowd.
If the deil were dead, folk would do little for God's sake.
Deil mend ye if your leg were broken.

(For a peety, Hislop juist uizes "were" like this - but wi Burns's "An A
saw ane an twinty, Tam", we see that this past tense formation o the
conditional can be uized braider in Scots than's heard in English).

But wi plural forms, it's haurd ti ken if it's a deliberate conditional or
a wrang transference o English grammar inti Scots:

If "ifs" an' "ans" were kettles an' pans there would be nae use for
tinklers. If a' your hums and haws were hams and haggises, the parish
needna fear a dearth. If a' things were to be done twice, ilka ane wad be
wise. If wishes were horses beggars wad ride, and a' the warld be drowned
in pride.

This is as far as say that "If wishes were..." should be "If wishes wis..."
if we be na ti uize the conditional (och, A'm uizin it masel nou :)

Weel! A howp the'r ither Lawlaners finnds this interestin an haes eneuch
opeenion o the maiter ti want ti hae their say on't! Mind that this is like
ti be _the_ Scots proverb collection on the Wab, wi mair nor 4000 saws an a
first-cless sairch engine (or A'm A mintin afore a strike? Houanever, A can
see mair nor a inch afore ma nose, sae dinna lift me afore A faa! (this is
a example o what guid the sairch engine is!)) - sae if ye'v onything ti say
on't, A'll no be dief on that side o ma heid. "He that spares to speak
spares to speed"!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org

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