LL-L: "Loanwords" (was "Romance connection") LOWLANDS-L, 10.MAY.2000 (02) [D/E/French/Spanish]
Lowlands-L
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Wed May 10 20:14:34 UTC 2000
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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAY.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian,
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Roger Thijs [Roger.Thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: Romance connections
1. Refering to wasp:
Apparently the w-g transformation is not done in all romance varieties of
French.
Below an except from a discussion in the picard language list "achteure"
about wether or not one should translate words as "internet" into picard:
--- quote
From: Alain Dawson <dawson at netcourrier.com>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 18:25:09 +0200
....
Sur le "Intarnète" lui-même, en ce qui me concerne, je préfère le jeu de
mot "wèpe" qui est un mot picard signifiant "guèpe" ainsi qu'une adaptation
phonétique de "web".
-- endquote
2. Ulrix in "De Germaansche elementen in de Romaansche talen" Gent, 1907,
lists 2520 germanic words that entered into romance languages or varieties.
quote (I cannot quote correctly some accents, as e.g. some vowel subscripts)
nr 2421: Mhd _we,spe_, wesp; daarvan, volgens Horning, Zs. rom. Phil. 18,
230, Oostfr. _wes_, wesp. Het Mhd _we,spe_ heeft ook zijnen invloed
uitgeoefend op de vorming (uit Lat. vespa) van 't Fr. _guêpe_, Ital. Cat.
Prov. _vespa_, enz., vgl. Dz 606 _guêpe_; Kluge s.v. _Wespe_. Zoo vindt men
ook de inwerking van Ohd. _wipera_ op de vorming (uit. Lat. _vipera_) v.
Ofr. _guivre_, sepent, en van Ohd. _wiz_, wisch op de vorming (uit Lat.
_viscum_) van Fr. _gui_, marentak.
comments: some abbreviations
Oostfr. Oostfransch
Dz: Diez, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der romanischen Sprachen, 5. Ausgabe, 1887
3. I have a question too: has the 8-based counting system (in combination
by the 20-base) a celtic-gallic origin?
e.g. in walloon dialect from Liège, Belgium:
ût-nouf (eight-nine for seventien)
(Li walon d'Lidge sins mao d'tiesse, 3e éd., 1976)
Regards,
Roger
----------
From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
Subject: LL-L: "Romance connection" LOWLANDS-L, 05.MAY.2000 (09) [E]
At 16:54 05/05/00 -0700, Sandy fleming wrote:
>We were told at school that this was from "garde à l'eau", which might
>explain better the frequency of the usage - every time someone used the
>"chanty", to be precise!
While we're on the subject, does anyone have any idea of the etymology
of the Scots "chanty" (chamber-pot)? The Concise Scots Dictionary gives
it as "unknown".
However, a good number of years ago I remember browsing through a
cookery book published in India. The measures were not always given
in familiar units of weight, but in other ways too. I remember that
pulses were sometimes measured with something called a "chuntu" which
I took to be a kind of vessel or container.
Remembering other words which have passed into Scots, such as
"mulligatawny" and "peely-wally", from India's time as part of
the British Empire, I couldn't help wondering whether "chanty"
originated in the same way.
So, does anyone out there know whether the Scots "chanty" does
derive from the Hindustani "chuntu"?
Colin Wilson.
************ http://www.btinternet.com/~lcwilson/colin.htm ***********
the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
Colin Wilson the barra wadna row its lane
writin fae Glesca an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
**********************************************************************
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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Romance connexion
Ron asked:
>Does any of you know how Spanish (Castilian) acquired the apparently
Lowlands Germanic loan _estufa_ (f.) 'stove'. Theoretically, it comes from
*_stuuf_ (Dutch spelling *_stoef_). Of course, we already know that
English _stove_ comes from either Middle Dutch or Middle Low Saxon (Middle
Low German) _stove_, is related to words for '(heated) room' (Germanic
*_stubh-_), and also appears to be related to _stew_ (e.g., Dutch _stoven_,
Afrikaans _stowe_).<
De Vries says:
>Men kan verbinden met "stuiven" en "stoom" en dan uitgaan van de oude
badmethode, waarbij water op heet gemaakte stenen werd gegoten en de
badruimte zich med stoom vulde. Men kan ook van en grondvorm *stubh uitgaan
en deze met ohd. "stiura", onoors "staurr" "paal" verbinden: dan zou het
woors eigenlijk een "balkenhut" aanduiden. De betekenis "badruimte" zou dan
beïnvloed zijn door romaanse woorden als ital. "stufa", provençaals "stuva",
frans "étuve" - "kachel", "badvertrek".<
So in the second of these possibilities "*stubh" is not a heated room but a
log cabin and the meaning got restricted to a stove or bathroom because of
the similar Romance word with that sense.
Hachette says that "étuve" is from Lat. "*extupare" from Gr. "tuphein",
"smoke".
We therefore have an argument that Sp. "estufa" does not come from Gmc.
Instead, such Romance words have influenced the meaning of the words used in
the Gmc languages.
Is Swedish "bastu", E. "sauna" (from Finnish), a contraction of "Badestube"
(or something similar) from LG?
Regarding the French/Scottish connexion I read many years ago an
autobiographical work by John Read who was Professor of Chemistry at St
Andrews University for many decades because there was no compulsory
retirement age in Scottish universities. (Has this changed?) He gave
examples of student jargon, a lot of which I seem to recall was French in
origin, though corrupted. A freshman was called something derived from "bec
jaune". Perhaps someone else knows something more definite about this.
John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk
----------
From: Jorge Potter [jorgepot at caribe.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Romance connection" LOWLANDS-L, 06.MAY.2000 (02) [E]
Amigos de la linguística de los países bajos:
El jefe R. F. Hahn dijo:
Does any of you know how Spanish (Castilian) acquired the apparently
Lowlands Germanic loan _estufa_ (f.) 'stove'. Theoretically, it comes from
*_stuuf_ (Dutch spelling *_stoef_). Of course, we already know that
English _stove_ comes from either Middle Dutch or Middle Low Saxon (Middle
Low German) _stove_, is related to words for '(heated) room' (Germanic
*_stubh-_), and also appears to be related to _stew_ (e.g., Dutch _stoven_,
Afrikaans _stowe_).
Prof. Joan (Catalan male gender) Corominas doesn't attribute anything of
"estufa" to the Lowlands:
ESTUFA 'hogar encerrado en una caja de metal o porcelana, que se coloca en las
habitaciones para calentarlas', 1705, antes 'aposento herméticamente cerrado y
caldeado artificialmente', 1490, 'lugar cerrado donde se coloca al enfermo que
ha de tomar sudores', 1495 (y estuba,h. 1300). Del verbo estufar'caldear un
aposento cerrado' (mejor representado en otras lenguas romances), y éste
probablemente de un verbo del latín vulgar *EXTUPHARE 'caldear con vapores',
adaptación del gr. EKTYPHO 'yo convierto en humo', 'avivo el fuego, atizo',
deriv. de TYPHOS 'vapor'; se trata de un vocablo común a varias lenguas
romances, pero no es probable que en castellano sea auctótono en su forma
original, sino procedente del it. stufa,V. ESTOFAR.
My translation:
ESTUFA 'firebox enclosed in metal or porcelain, that can be placed in bedrooms
in order to heat them,' 1705, previously 'a tightly sealed and artificially
heated room,' 1490, a closed place where patients can receive sweat
treatments,' 1495 (also estuba,toward 1300.) From the verb estufar'to heat a
closed room' (better represented in other romance languages,) and the latter
probably from the Vulgar Latin verb *EXTUPHARE 'heat with steam,' adaptation
of the Gr. EKTYPHO 'I convert into smoke,' 'I stir up the fire, add fuel,"
derived from TYPHOS 'steam;' we are dealing with a term common to various
Romance Languages, but it is not probable to have arisen in its present form
in Spanish, but rather borrowed from the Italian stufa. See ESTOFAR [to stew
in a closed pot].
Also N. Zanichelli (Vocabolario della lingua italiana) derives the Italian
word stufafrom the slightly more italianized VL EXTUFARE.
Hasta otra,
Jorge Potter
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