LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 21.NOV.2000 (03) [E]

Tue Nov 21 16:52:23 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.NOV.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Literature"

Ron wrote, concerning the Grimm Brothers' fairy tales:

> The brothers' field trips took them north of
> their Hessian
> homeland into Low-Saxon-speaking regions, and they included in
> their
> collection tales from those regions, related to them mostly by
> older women,
> the usual keepers of folklore and oral literature.  How
> faithfully the
> brothers recorded the stories is not known, I believe.
> Surviving
> manuscripts with notations and corrections seem to indicate
> that they
> edited them heavily (also the German ones).

I don't want to go any further off topic, but I'll just pass
this reference along for those who are interested in the Grimms'
fairy tales: John Ellis' One Fairytale too Many details
(indignently) how the Grimms proceeded, and it seems that they
relied primarily on one old woman- who was a French Huggenot,
and whose tales derive directly from a French book of fairy
tales.  They don't seem to have consulted many old women at all,
despite their claim (their collection was, after all, driven by
a passionate desire to unify the Germans, and they cut a few
corners)
Ellis also points out the extensive editing the Grimms carried
out with each edition.  They did excellent linguistic research,
but seem to have claimed more research than they actually did
when it came to the fairy tales.
I think the Platt stories were contributed by others to the
Grimms' collection, but I don't recall definitely.

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

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From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 20.NOV.2000 (04) [E]

Georg Deutsch at ESA
11/21/2000 10:23

Ron wrote:

>....I am under the impression that the Low Saxon tales in the collection
tend
>to be the lesser known ones in the collection.  This may well be because
>most German speakers do not understand them, or they understand them
>poorly.  Indeed, I have seen some German translations of these tales, to
make them accessible to Germans at large.
><snip>
>
>Here are some of the Grimms' collection tales that I know to be in Low
>Saxon, though the list is probably not complete.  The parenthesized
>translations of the titles are mine, not the "official" ones.
>
>Von dem Fischer un syner Fru (About the Fisher and his Wife)
>...

About 1960 a compilation of Grimm's collection especially edited for small
children by an Austrian writer was quite popular, as far I can judge. Anyhow,
I do remember that it then was quite common among children in Vienna to have
this book and know the content. In this small "canon" was included the story
about the fisher and his wife - I cannot remember there any of the other
originally Low-Saxon stories. Of course, the story was written in German, it
would have been too demanding to expect from a 5-year old Austrian to
understand Low-Saxon. However, there was a verse in the story which was
quoted in (or at least close to) the original version.
This verse included something like (quoting after not having it seen for
about 40 years, my quotation surely is not accurate)
Mine fru de Isebil
wil nit dat wat ik wel wil

According to my memory this was not translated, but it was understandable
with a little bit of effort - supported by the context.
By this it was obvious to the young reader that the story originally was not
written in German but in a related strange language somewhere near Holland or
Denmark.

regards
Georg

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Phonology

Dear Lowlanders,

Georg wrote above:

> However, there was a verse in the story which was
> quoted in (or at least close to) the original version.
> This verse included something like (quoting after not having it seen for
> about 40 years, my quotation surely is not accurate)
> Mine fru de Isebil
> wil nit dat wat ik wel wil

This is how it goes:

     Manntje, Manntje, Timpe Te,
     Buttje, Buttje in der See,
     Myne Fru, de Ilsebill,
     Will nich so, as ik wol will.

This and the title of the tale ("Von dem Fischer un syner Fru") as well as
some phrases in the text itself are either archaic or they are suspect, i.e.,
inaccurately recorded.  It could well be that marking genitive case was still
"high" style at the time.  I have observed it in Low Saxon/Low German
storytelling and writing a couple of times even now (e.g., _mit miener Fru_
for _mit mien Fru_ 'with my wife').

In today's ordinary language there is no dative marking (_in der See_ = _in de
See_ 'in the sea', _Von dem Fischer un syner Fru_ = _Vun'n Fischer un sien(e)
Fru_ 'About the Fisher and His Wife).

In the body of the tale, too, we have a few instances of marked dative case,
e.g. (my translation into the modern language in paretheses), _dicht an der
See_ (= _dicht an/bi de See_ 'near the sea'), _in dem Slott_ (= _in dat Slott_
'in the castle'), _Ga hen tom Butt_ (= Ga hen to'n Butt_ 'Go to see the
flounder'), _mit enem grooten Toorn_ (= _mit een grooten Toorn_ ~ _mit 'n
grooten Toorn_ 'with a tall tower'), _so wöör allens von purem Marmelsteen mit
Gold_ (= _so wöör allens von puur Marmelsteen mit Gold_ ~ _so wöör allens von
puren Marmelsteen mit Gold_ 'so everything was of pure marble with gold'),
_syne Fru seet up enem hogen Troon von Gold und Demant_ (= _sien(e) Fru seet
up een hogen Troon von Gold und Demant_ ~ _sien(e) Fru seet up 'n hogen Troon
von Gold und Demant_ 'his wife was sitting on a high throne made of gold and
diamond'), _un den Zepter in der Hand von purem Gold un Edelsteen_ (= _un den
Zepter in de Hand von puur Gold un Eddelsteen_ 'and the scepter in her hand
made of pure gold and gems').

This is contradicted by instances of unmarked dative case instances; e.g., _So
seet he ook eens by de Angel_ (not _So seet he ook eens by der Angel_ "So once
he was stitting at the fishingrod" = 'So once he was sitting there fishing'),
_wull awerst syn Fru ook nicht to weddern syn_ (not _wull awerst syner Fru ook
nicht to weddern syn_ 'but on the other hand did not want to contradict his
wife'), _un syn Fru stünn ewen up de Trepp_ (not _un syn Fru stünn ewen up der
Trepp_ 'and his wife was just standing on the stairs'), _do nöhm se em by de
Hand_ (not _do nöhm se em by der Hand_ 'then she took him by the hand').

There are also a few suspect words, such as _Zimmers_ for 'rooms', clearly a
German substitute for native _Kamern_ or _Kamers_, as well as _drin_ 'inside'
and _nun_ 'now' which seem suspiciously German in place of native _binnen_ and
_nu_ respectively.

You can find the Low Saxon text here:
http://www.vcu.edu/hasweb/for/grimm/fischer.html
However, beware.  There are errors, some apparently due to German-mode OCR
scanning.

Other, apparently more reliable versions are located here:
http://www.udoklinger.de/Grimm/Vom_Fischer2.htm
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/vomfisch.htm

An English translation can be found here:
http://www.vcu.edu/hasweb/for/grimm/fischer_e.html

I remember that our own Andy Eagle translated this tale from Low Saxon
directly into Scots.

Here are links to the other tales in Low Saxon:

Von dem Machandelboom
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/mchandel.htm

Knoist un sine dre Sühne
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/knoist.htm

Dat Mäken von Brakel
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/maken.htm

Up Reisen gohn
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/gohn.htm

Oll Rinkrank
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/oll.htm

De Gaudeif un sien Meester
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/gaudeif.htm

De drei Vugelkens
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/vugelken.htm

Ferenand getrü und Ferenand ungetrü
http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimm/maerchen/getrue.htm

Again, these versions appear to be scanned and insufficiently edited.

Enjoy!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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