LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 21.NOV.2000 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at euro-support.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 21.NOV.2000 (02) [E]

> From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
> Subject: "Language varieties"
> Ethan Barrett asked:
> Language vs dialect
> > how do we
> > distinguish seperate languages from seperate dialects of the
> > same language?
> ouch- that's a question that's bedeviled this list repeatedly,
> and as a trained linguist, I can tell you-  there is no reliable
> criterion to determine whether related varietes should be
> considered dialects or languages.

Isn't it better we forget all about dialects and rather speak about:
- koiné languages, quite often having a rulesetting that is protected by
some authoritative body
- parish languages, spoken by the native population of a given parish.
(eventually sharing linguistical features with other parishes in the
area)?

Since nowadays we have a lot of migration across Europe, migrants rather
tend to learn the koiné than the parish language, and since the native
parish people speak both, or quite often speak the parish language and
write in the koiné, the koiné wins, especially considering the strongly
increased migration on the continent since WWII.

Some languages appear only as a collection of _linguistically related_
parish languages, without these having a "strong" and widely accepted
common standard. Other languages are virtually purely koiné as
Esperanto, I guess.

I think it is hard for a parish language nowadays to grow into a "new"
koiné. Lëtzebuergesch from Luxemburg-city may be the exception.

Regards,

Roger

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Roger,

You wrote above:

> - koiné languages, quite often having a rulesetting that is protected by
> some authoritative body
> - parish languages, spoken by the native population of a given parish.

While I do not fundmentally disagree with your alternative classification, I
have a problem with the term "parish."  To me it sounds way too Euro- and
Christiano-centric to be universally acceptable.  Sure, in addition to the
ecclesiastic meaning 'subdivision of a diocese' it may denote a secularly
administrative division, but apparently only in British English.  It hails
from a mindset conditioned by "church = state", and I dare say many people
would feel as uncomfortable with it denoting "non-standard language variety"
as I do.  With the exception of Lousiana, where "parish" denotes
'administrative division' as well, "parish" tends to be understood as
connected with churches in America and elsewhere.  (Remember that the United
States have strict constitutional separation between church and state.)
"Parish" certainly does not sound acceptable with regard to non-Christians, at
least not to me.  For example, I would be more than hesitant to use "parish
language" with reference to, say, a Turkish, Arabic, Yiddish, Hindi or
Mandarin dialects, or to English varieties of Asia or Africa.

Sure, to some this may seem like putting too fine a point on it.  However,
levels of tolerance differ from person to person.  In this era of coming
together, why not use more neutral, less culture- and religion-bound names
when creating new terminologies?

I do agree, though, that it is difficult to find neutral terms that are not
also ambiguous, e.g., "regional" or "local."  How about "standard" versus
"non-standard"?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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