LL-L: "Zeelandic" LOWLANDS-L, 09.OCT.2000 (04) [E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 9 19:59:09 UTC 2000
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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2000 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: jlknld at quios.com
Subject: LL-L: "Zeelandic" (was "Administrativa") LOWLANDS-L, 08.OCT.2000
(03) [D/E]
>From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
>Subject: Zeelandic
>
>Marco, Lowlanders,
>
>I've heard that West Flemish has a fair bit of Saxon influence, and
>personally I've found more phonological similarities between WF and Low
>Saxon than between Standard Dutch and LS. Since Zeelandic is on a sort of
>continuum with WF, has anyone identified Saxonisms in those Friso-Frankish
>varieties (provided that Saxon influx affected Zeeland as well)?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,
35 years ago I worked in NW Overyssel. As 'Zeelandic speaker' I could
understand the 'Saxon speaking?' inhabitants very well.
Regards,
Jakob
[Full name: Jakob Liek. (A poster's full name must be visible, even if
first and last name are in different places.) RFH]
----------
From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Zeelandic" (was "Administrativa") LOWLANDS-L, 08.OCT.2000
(03) [D/E]
Francis de Ruijte wrote:
> Besides the literary viewpoint on Zeelancic, I read a poem-one of my
> preferred
> ones-by Filips Marnix van St. Aldegonde (1538-1598), who lived in
Zeeland.
> His
> poem proves, as long ago as the 16th century, that politically and
> historically,
> Holland and Zeeland were seen as distinct. Read the line _d'Hollander
end'
> de
Zeeuw_ near the end of the first strophe.
Philips van Marnix van Sint Aldegonde lived in Zeeland for some time (my
parents live in a house that was built on the grounds of his former castle
Aldegonde in West-Souburg), but he originally came from Henegouwen/Hainaut,
now a Belgian province. A a 16th century nobleman, his mothertongue wasn't
Zeelandic or Flemish, but French. That makes the Zeelandic influences in
his
writing, alltough very slight and quite rare, even more interesting.
'Marnix' wasn't the first writer to notice the distinction between Holland
and Zeeland. As early as the 13th century, Jacob van Maerlant wrote:
'Men moet om de rime te souken
Misselike tonghe in bouken:
Duuts, Diets, Brabants, Vlaemsch, Zeeus;
Walsch, Latijn, Griex ende Hebreeus'
It's interesting to see how he divided the languages of the Lowlands there:
Duuts, Diets, Brabants, Vlaemsch and Zeeus or Low Saxon, Hollandic,
Brabantic, Flemish and Zeelandic. As a Fleming from the region of
Bruges/Brugge who has lived in Zeeland for quite a while, he wrote in a
mixed West-Flemish/Zeelandic language that was easily understood throughout
Flanders and Zeeland.
and R. F. Hahn wrote:
> I've heard that West Flemish has a fair bit of Saxon influence, and
> personally I've found more phonological similarities between WF and Low
> Saxon than between Standard Dutch and LS. Since Zeelandic is on a sort
of
> continuum with WF, has anyone identified Saxonisms in those
Friso-Frankish
> varieties (provided that Saxon influx affected Zeeland as well)?
At this moment, I don't have many resources at hand to answer that question
thoroughly, but I'll give it a try anyhow. West-Flemish does indeed have
some Low Saxon influence, although that influence is not as big as the
phonology of West-Flemish suggests. As far as I know, obvious
'similarities'
like the open pronounciation of the [a] in many positions (spelled as oa in
e.g. the dialect of Groningen) and the very emphatic pronounciation of
the -n at the end of verbs and plural forms are no original features of
West-Flemish, but are of Brabantic (Frankish) origin (although later some
of
these features died out in Brabant).
The most 'pure' dialects of West-Flemish are to be found in the
southernmost
part of French Flanders (near Dunkerque), in villages like Buysscheure,
Lederzeele, Wulverdinge and Ruyscheure (Renescure). And what strikes me
about these dialects is the huge number of Ingvaeonic features, just as in
Zeelandic. And there are more similarities between these southernmost
dialects of West-Flemish and Zeelandic: the n at the end of verbs is
silent,
with some exceptions. This quite complex system is, as far as I know, the
same as the Frisian system. Another similarity is the half-open
pronounciation of the [a] in many positions (spelled as ae in Zeelandic).
On the other hand, these southern dialects of West-Flemish appear to have
the most Saxon features. That could be the influence of the language once
spoken further south in and around the city of Boulogne (Bonen). There, the
original ingvaeonic was somewhat influenced by Frankish (as it was all
along
the coast of Flanders and Zeeland), but was influenced heavily by Low Saxon
immigrants from Schleswig-Holstein (C4 & 5) and later by Saxons from
England
(C7 & 8). I believe it was in the 13th or 14th century that the 'Saxon'
language of the Boulonnais made way for French (Picard), but many
placenames
still show a Saxon background: Connincthun, Raventhun, Alincthun,
Godincthun, Baincthun, Offrethun (as well as names like Echinghen,
Maninghen, Widehem).
I remember reading somewhere that a Saxon epic (I believe it was 'De
Heliand' or something) was written in Boulogne around 830. The language in
that epic was mostly Saxon, although there were quite a few Frisian
features
as well as some Frankish elements.
In Zeelandic, there is very little Saxon influence. The Zeeland polders
were
populated from the northern part of Flanders in a time that the ingvaeonic
language spoken there (some consider that original language to be Frisian,
but I don't think that is correct; I'd rather say it was a coastal language
in its own right that was closely related to Frisian) was hardly under the
influence of Brabantic/Frankish dialects yet. Therefore, Zeelandic
phonology
and syntaxis have more ingvaeonic features than West-Flemish, allthough
some
of them disappeared (quite recently) under the influence of Dutch and
Hollandic dialects.
Perhaps nice to know for fans of Scots: Scottish liberators in the 2nd WW
could, with some effort, understand speakers of Zeelandic and those
speakers
found Scots easier to understand than the English spoken by Canadian
soldiers. Older men from my village still tell stories about the sometimes
hilarious conversations they had with the Scots....
Groetenisse,
Marco
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