LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 04.APR.2001 (02) [D/E]

Wed Apr 4 14:38:26 UTC 2001

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L O W L A N D S - L * 04.APR.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: rudi [rudi at its.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 03.APR.2001 (03) [D/E]

Henry wrote:
"Yet I ask you, is a language with millions of speakers (more than Dutch!)
really a minority language? Ok, it's not a national language, but does that
make it a minority language?"

Henry got seriously pissed off with the arrogant attitude of the Nationaal
Comité. Just who do these people
think they are? I think his reaction is quite mild and completely
understandable.

I think that these guys are of the opinion that only official national
languages are to be considered. And
that only an official national language with few speakers is to be recognised
and considered a minority
language. All others are therefore beyond the pale.

They seem to forget that the "official" languages are derived from the very
same roots as the "not to be
considered" languages and in a sense they are more artificial than their
"plattelandse" (and more widely
used) cousins.

I particularly applaud Ron's suggestion: sock it to them baby!!!
Here's wishing you Power to your elbow!
Rudi

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From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at saxnot.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 03.APR.2001 (07) [E]

Chriostóir wrote:
>
>I'm hardly surprised by the treatment of Low Saxon,
>but that never mitigates the sadness. But let's be
>constructive, unite and get on with protesting against
>injustice.

>do the speakers of
>Low Saxon consider themselves part of a "Low Saxon
>nation" or just "Low Saxon-speaking Germans"? Or is
>"Germanness" a kind of unifying state imposition
>
I don't really consider myself part of a "Low Saxon nation", but neither do I
feel
like I'm 100% part of the Dutch either (you did know Low-Saxon is used not
only in Germany I presume). I feel like a Tukker, a person from Twente, which
just happens to be in the Netherlands, instead of in Germany or anywhere
else. Although, I feel a bit more of a connection with the people on the
opposite
side of the border in Niedersachsen (Lower-Saxony) and in Westfalen
(Westfalia),
than I do with the people in the west of the Netherlands. But it's not like I
would
like to see a Saxon state or anything... It's fine like it is, I would only
like it if our
language wasn't discriminated against that much.

>Integration of Saxons in the "German" fold goes back a long time, starting
>with the subjugation of the Saxons by Charlemagne.  (In German history lessons
>he is portrayed as a Christian hero who showed the "pagan" Saxons the right
>way, although thinking people of Saxon descent may not necessarily agree with
>that portrayal.  In 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500
>Saxons beheaded.
>
It's the same here. At school you learn t
hat Charlemagne was about the biggest
king ever and that he did good everwhere etc., etc... But if you read up on
him a
bit, you find that he might just have murdered your
great-great-great-grandfather.
Furthermore, in the Dutch history books there isn't any talk of Saxons or
Frisians,
no, of course not, it were the Batavians that settled this country! Well,
according to
what I know, no Batavian has ever set foot on Twente ground...

>I dare say that otherwise they would have ended up being stamped >"German
>dialects" the way Low Saxon and Limburgish dialects of Germany did.
>
That's what I always throw at people who say that Low-Saxon is not a separate
language. But then they go on and on about how different Dutch is from German,
while actually Dutch is as different from German, as Low-Saxon is from Dutch.
It's all just a matter of perspective.

regards,
Henry

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From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at saxnot.com]
Subject: Language politics

Dear Lowlanders,

Apparently my complaint to the Nationaal Comite worked.
Today I received another email from them, which I've copied
below. Their statement now, is that regional, minority and sign
languages DO fall within the context of the European Year of
the Languages, so they can get support (financiel e.a.). They
also said that they were now trying to incorporate my proposal
into their activities and to provide support for it.

Looks like writing angry letters/emails does help sometimes...

regards,
Henry Pijffers

***

Geachte heer Pijffers,

Gisteren ontving u per mail onze reactie op uw idee om tijdens het Jaar van
de Talen aandacht voor (Neder-) Saksisch te vragen.  Die informatie klopte
niet, hetgeen volledig mijn schuld is. Ik heb de besluitvorming over
toekenning van projectsubsidies voorbereid en daarbij aangegeven dat
subsidie of ondersteuning bij regionale of minderheidstalen niet zou passen
binnen de kaders die aan het jaar van de talen waren gesteld. Ik ben daarin
vorige week door het Nationaal Comité gecorrigeerd en gewezen op het feit
dat de regionale - en minderheidstalen en gebarentalen wel degelijk kunnen
meedingen naar subsidie of ondersteuning. Ik heb echter verzuimd om mijn
collega Lia Zwitselaar van het projectbureau Europees Jaar van de Talen van
de juiste redenering van het Nationaal Comité inzake uw voorstel op de
hoogte te stellen. Het gevolg was de mail met onjuiste informatie.

Ik bied u mijn welgemeende excuses aan voor deze gang van zaken.
 We proberen
uw voorstel te integreren in onze activiteiten en te ondersteunen via onze
communicatiemiddelen.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Arjan Keijzer

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