LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 04.APR.2001 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: David Strommen [si00924 at navix.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 04.APR.2001 (04) [E]

In Norway the designation for relatives is very similar to High German with
some
variation. Mother is Mor or Mama (a more endearing form or used by children),
Far
or Papa, Mormor, Morfar, Farmor and Farfar for grandparents with the children
sometimes saying them in a childish way like momo for Mormor and famo etc. In
the
United States we see that many of the dialects have taken the generic way of
using
these terms and call the grandparents always besteforeldre, bestemor,
bestefar.
This is perfectly acceptable in Norway itself, but I found the specific terms
like
Mormor used more often.  Another way we would refer to our grandparents was
Besta,
for Grandmother and Besten for Grandfather. I am not sure if that is exclusive
to
Nordfjord or not.

    For cousins we have a system of saying for first cousin søskenbarn or
syskjenbarn, more than one may be called syskjenborn or in my dialect of
Nordfjord
syskjenbonjnj with palatalization of the n's. Then we break them down into
female
first-cousin Kusine and male Fetter. The following generations would then have
terms for their lateral relations such as Tremening, Firmening. So my dad's
first-cousin's child would be my tremening, my tremening's child would be my
son's
firmening and so forth.  With aunts and uncles we have the generic Tante and
onkel. I would use these terms for those people married to my father or
mother's
siblings. The actual blood relative would be my moster (my mother's sister) or
faster (father's sister) and farbror (father's brother) and morbror (mother's
brother).
    A brother or sister, sibling, is et syskjen or søsken. A brother is bror,
brothers brør or brødre, syster for sister and systre for sisters. A child is
et
barn, children born. A grandchild is et barnebarn, grandchildren are
barneborn.
You can be specific here too by say datterson, datterdatter, soneson,
sonedatter-meaning daughter's son, daughter's daughter, son's son, son's
daughter.  A sibling's children are called nevø for nephew, and nies for
niece.
We also have the sometimes endearing terms (probably archaic)  for an old man
and
woman. These are Gubben and Gumma. These today can be construed as
inappropriate
and patronizing.  When growing up I remember my father using the term Far for
older men like the statement "Ja, du får ha det godt, du far."-"Yes, you take
it
easy, you father."
    We also have a way of denoting parents of grandparents and going back.
Oldemor
is great grandmother, Oldefar, great grandfather, Tipp oldemor and then you
just
add a tipp to go further back.

There you have basic Norwegian lineage 101
 Hope it helps. David Strømmen

----------

From: niels.winther at dfds.dk
Subject: kinship

*  Ron, you wrote:
!  Scandinavian languages have no broad terms like "grandparent(s)"
!  or even "grandmother" and "grandfather;" they require you to be
!  specific by using terms that denote "father's father",
!  "father's mother", "mother's father" and "mother's mother"
!  and this appears to reflect traditional importance of the
!  specific relationship/status of a grandparent.

It is true that Danes as well as perhaps other Scandinavians tend
to use the more specific terms, especially in direct address.

But more genereric terms do exist.

son           : _søn_
daughter      : _datter_
child         : _barn_
children      : _børn_

brother       : _broder_, _bror_
sister        : _søster_
siblings      : _søskende_

father        : _fader_, _far_
mother        : _moder_, _mor_
parents       : _forældre_

niece         : _niece_
nephew        : _nevø_

male cousin   : _fætter_
female cousin : _kusine_

uncle         : _onkel_
aunt          : _tante_

grand-father  : _bedstefader_, bedstefar_
grand-mother  : _bedstemoder_, bedstemor_
grand-parents : _bedsteforældre_

grand_uncle   : _grandonkel_
grand-aunt    : _grandtante_

great-grand-father : _oldefader_, _oldefar_
great-grand-mother : _oldemoder_, _oldemor_
great-grand-parents: _oldeforældre_

great-great-grand-father : _tipoldefader_, _tipoldefar_
great-great-grand-mother : _tipoldemoder_, _tipoldemor_
great-great-grand-parents: _tipoldeforældre_

grand-child   : _barnebarn_
grand-children: _børnebørn_ (NB double plural!)

great-grand-child   : _oldebarn_
great-grand-children: _oldebørn_
etc.

xxxxxx-in-law: _svigerxxxxxx_ etc.

Originally grand-father was _oldefader_ but with the
Low-Saxon or Dutch loan _bestevader_ the _oldeforældre_
was pushed one generation back.

Another term for grand-father, grandmother existed
at least in Jutland and especially in the northern part,
where it is still used as reference, but only jokingly
in direct address: _gammelfar_, _gammelmor_ .

it is interesting that some English dialects have
_gaffer_, _gammer_ for an old man, woman.

one might suspect a Danish or Jutish etymology here
in sted of the contraction hypothesis
( _grand-father_ > _gaffer_; _grand-mother_ > _gammer_ )
suggested by OED.

Whereas the Swedish tend to address any adult male
as _farbror_ the Danish tend only to extend the use
of _onkel_ to a near male friend of the family.
the formula _onkel NN_ is used.

and as a curiosum: the english-speaking children of an
Indian friend call me _niels-uncle_

rgds
niels

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 04.APR.2001 (04) [E]

A chairde,

Thanks to Ron for his e-mail, and for opening up an
exciting new strand in our discussions. He rightly
points out that kinship often retains relics from
substrate groups absorbed into the superstrate, and,
further, that such sociological deployments as
"fictive kinship" form a very real branch of kinship
besides one's family.

I have a feeling I may lapse into the personal here,
but I hope that my contribution is not trite
sentimentality but rather a serious addition to
notions of kinship in the midlands of England. It may
be noted for historical necessity that the area I
speak of formed the heartland of Dano-Norse settlement
in England ("the Danelaw"), including two of the five
Danelaw boroughs - Nottingham and Derby. I would like
to know to what extent the kinship terms I am familiar
with and their application can be said to belong to
northern English culture as a whole, or to a
specifically local sub-culture.

This is not intended as a scholarly contribution, and
I doubt it is of any relevancy outside of quaint
anecdote. I hope it is of some help to Ron and to
Lowlanders in general in understanding Lowland
kinship.

Where I  grew up, the immediately family consisted of
one's "primary relatives" (my term), e.g. the subject,
her or his biological mother and father, siblings
(sisters and brothers), and grandchildren, nieces and
nephews and cousins. Uncles and aunts were less
relevant and might be considered "secondary relatives"
(which seems anomalous as I write it, but these terms
have complicating connotations I will discuss later).
It does not matter whether one's father is one's
biological one: "Dad" is a term used to denote natural
father and stepfather alike, and it seems to be a
longstanding innovation within my local community,
where there was a high incidence of re-marriage - the
subject never says "mi stepfaetha" e.g. Ah meh mi Dad
in taán [I met my Dad in town.]". One does not find
that the term "Mum" is so elastic: it is absolute,
meaning one's biological mother. A stepmother would be
referred to informally as "Mum" but the subject would
say "mi stepmum" when referring to her as the subject
of a conversation, e.g. "Ah meh mi stepmum in taán.[I
met my stepmum in town.]"

This curious matrilinealism is backed up by the
elasticity of the term "uncle" - frequently, an
"uncle" is not a true member of the family: close
family friends gain the tag "Uncle" and have
godfather-type responsibilities to their "nephews and
nieces". This is fictive kinship, and to a lesser
extent there are "fictive Aunties" too. It is
illogical because one does not have "fictive cousins":
the children of one's "false uncle" are not considered
a "part of the clan".

However, I recall from personal experience that close
friends often reported that they were "cousins" even
when they shared no relatives - biological or fictive
- at all. It seems to represent a type of inclusivity,
perhaps developed from the days when everyone in the
community *was* related. The notion of an informal
godfather (the capacity of godfather was not at all
used where I grew up and made no sense) or foster
father is the closest I can come to explaining the
meaning of "Uncle".

I have noticed that the terms "brother" and "sister"
are also absolutes: in Nottingham it is anomalous to
refer to a male friend as "brother" or a female one as
"sister" - it sits uneasily and has resisted
americanisation. It seems that the notion of
brotherhood and sisterhood are simply not capable of
being analogised or metaphorised: they remain always
one's blood relations.

I would argue that "mate" is a kinship term also.
There is a ferocious loyalty to one's friends in my
home area to the point of vendetta and violent
reprisals if one's friends are wronged or their person
violated. This is a female as well as male
characteristic. To say someone is your "mate" is to
extend fictive kinship to them, to admit them to your
clan or extended family (cf: close family friend as
"Uncle" and friend as "cousin"). Frequently I was
asked at school, in relation to discipline of my
behaviour, why I would continue to associate with "bad
influences". All I could answer was, "because they're
my mates." To give up one's mates is treachery, blood
rebuttal of a sort, absolute treason and
transgression. A friend who violates one's trust or
"fucks you over" (to use the most vitriolic term with
apologies to the list) becomes the hunted, someone who
will be hounded and attacked at every opportunity in
public: it's what causes many of the fights erupting
in bars in Nottingham on Friday and Saturday nights.
Violated friendship is tantamount to revoking kinship.

There is evidence in language for "mate" as a kinship
term. The world is divided into two populations on the
local level (similar to the Islamic division of the
world into Dar-es-Salaam and Dar-el-Gharb, perhaps):
"mates" and "they oo int yer mates" [lit. they who
isn't your mates]. The second group are absolute
enemies, for originally everyone is "yer mate" until
they do something that transports them to the
Dar-el-Gharb of "anti-friend". One will die for one's
mates, and often, in extremis, kill for them. One will
withstand a beating for them, and give a beating to
their enemies: a mate's enemy is yours also.

This echoes the treatment of other members of kin, in
a kind of circle of honour that, once it is broken,
must be avenged with "giein aat a kikkin" [lit. giving
out a kicking] to the offender. If someone assaults a
member of your immediate blood family, it is usual to
go and assault the offender - an eye for an eye. This
of course creates enormous and intricate feuds between
whole towns and sub-groups within communities. In
fact, it is often the case that the two antagonistic
sides have no knowledge of the original insult - some
are perhaps centuries old. For example, there is
vociferous antipathy between the people of Long Eaton
and its neighbour, Stapleford. It would be crude to
say, "People from Long Eaton hate those from
Stapleford" or vice versa, but the facts on the ground
are that if someone from Long Eaton visits a pub in
Stapleford and their origin is discovered, a fight
will usually ensue. Both sides have indictments of
wounded and assaulted kin against the other - each
attack and counterattack is carefully recorded and
nurtured.

What is clear, however, is that in Nottingham the
community consists, for want of a better term, of
clans of associated families, friends of families, and
mates, and that these function as kin.

I hope this has been of some help, and I look forward
to reading other contributions.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

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