LL-L: "Numbers" LOWLANDS-L, 15.AUG.2001 (01) [D/E]

Wed Aug 15 15:24:41 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 15.AUG.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachian, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Rudi Vari <rudi at its.co.za>
Subject: LL-L: "Numbers" LOWLANDS-L, 14.AUG.2001 (05) [E]

Hallo Lowlanders

Ron wrote and quoted:

> > As far as I know, this is only in Emsland Low Saxon. In adjacent > varieties
of  Low Saxon (Eastern Frisia, Oldenburg) counting continues > with the ending
"-tig" up to 90.
>
> Yes, and as far as I know, this applies to all other Northern Low Saxon
> dialects as well:
>
> 20: twintig
> 30: dörtig ~ dartig
> 40: veertig
> 50: föftig ~ fieftig
> 60: sösstig ~ sosstig ~ sesstig
> 70: söventig ~ söbentig
> 80: tachentig ~ ach(t)zig (!)
> 90: negentig

When I read "tachentig", I was immediately reminded of my mother-in-law. She
also
uses this word for  Afrikaans "tagtig". I always thought that this was a
sloppy
way of speaking
(no derogation intended), but upon enquiry I found out that her parents and
their
friends in the town of Carnarvon in the Northern Cape also spoke like that.
Could
there be a
possible connection?

Kind regards
Rudi Vári

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Numbers

Rudi, Lowlanders,

_Tachentig_ '80' is apparently used in some non-standard Dutch dialects as
well as in Low Saxon in both the Eastern Netherlands as in Northern Germany
("Low German").  It occurs in Dutch written works especially before the 19th
century.  For example, see the note added to an historical text:

http://www-cust01.energis-idc.net/~ljcoster/langendyk/spiegel/aanteken.html
Pieter Langendyk (1683 - 1756)
De Spiegel de Vaderlandsche Kooplieden

"tagchentig ontstaan uit t-achtig, waarvan de t terugwijst op' een
voorvoegsel, dat overeenkomt met ant (ouds.) of hund (ags.), misschien van
denzelfden stam als honderd. 't Is dus een vorm, waarin het denkbeeld tiental
tweemaal is uitgedrukt, vóór en achter het getal, vlg. ags. Hund-eahtatig. De
n in tachtentig, vroeger tachentig, is naar analogie van zeventig en negentig
ingevoegd, terwijl de t waarschijnlijk uitgevallen is om de euphonie, d. w. z.
tot vermijding der drie t's. (Zie Taal- en L. I, 115)."

I need to add that speakers of Low Saxon, from both sides of today's border,
began to arrive in Southern Africa in the early days of "Dutch" colonization,
and their dialects may have influenced the development of Afrikaans to some
degree, either directly or indirectly (i.e., via eastern Dutch dialects with
Low Saxon substrates).

For those who have no other access to it, below is the pronunciation of the
Low Saxon cardinal numbers (in Central North Saxon, German-based spelling),
using the SAMPA* phonetic IPA substitution system, with phonemic
representation (/ /) added:
*http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
 http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm
 http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/samprosa.htm

1: een [?e%In] ~ ein [?a%In]
   /ein/
2: twee [tvE%I] ~ twei [tva%I]
   /tvei/
3: dree [drE%I] ~ drei [dra%I]
   /drei/
4: veer [fE%I3]
   /feir/
5: fief ~ fiev [fI:f]
   /fiiv/
6: söss [z9s] ~ sess [zEs] ~ soss [zOs]
   /zös/~/zes/~/zos/
7: söven ['zø:v=m] ~ söben ['zø:b=m]
   /zööVn/
8: acht [?ax(t)]
   /axt/
9: negen ['ne:g=N] ~ ['nE:g=N]
   /neegn/
10: teihn [t`a%In]
    /tain/
11: ölven ['?9%lv=m] ~ ölben ['?9%lb=m] ~ olben ['?O%lb=m]
    /ölVn/~/olVn/
12: twölf [tv9%lf] ~ twolf [tvO%lf] ~ twalm [tva%lm]
    /tvölv/~/tvolv/~/tvalm/
13: dörteihn ['d9%3t(`)a(%)In] ~ darteihn ['da:t(`)a%In]
    /dörtain/~/dertain/~/dartain/
14: veerteihn ['fE%I3t(`)a(%)In]
    /feirtain/
15: föfteihn ['f9ft(`)a(%)In] ~ fofteihn ['fOft(`)a(%)In]
    /fövtain/~/fovtain/
16: sössteihn ['z9sta%In] ~ sessteihn ['zEsta%In] ~ sossteihn ['zOsta%In]
    /zöstain/~/zestain/-/zostain/
17: söventeihn ['zø:v=mt(`)a(%)In] ~ söbenteihn ['zø:b=mt(`)a(%)In]
    /zöVntain/
18: achteihn ['axta(%)In]
    /ax(t)tain/
19: negenteihn ['ne:g=Nt(`)a(%)In] ~ ['nE:g=Nt(`)a(%)In]
    /negentain/
20: twintig ['tvIntIC] ~ ['tvIndIC] ~ ['tvInIC]
    /tvintig/
21: eenuntwintig,
    etc.
30: dörtig ['d9%3tIC] ~ dertig ['dE%3tIC]
    /dörtig/~/dertig/
40: veertig ['fE%I3tIC]
    /feirtig/
50: föftig ['f9ftIC] ~ fieftig ['fi:ftig]
    /fövtig/~/fiivtig/
60: sösstig ['z9stIC] ~ sosstig ['zOstIC] ~ sesstig ['zEstIC]
    /zöstig/~/zostig/~/zestig/
70: söventig ['zø:v=mtIC] ~ söbentig ['zø:b=mtIC]
    /zöVntig/
80: tachentig ['tax=NtIC] ~ ach(t)zig ['?ax(t)sIC]
    /taxntig/~/axtsig/
90: negentig ['ne:g=NtIC] ~ ['nE:g=NtIC]
    /neegntig/
100: hunnert ~ hunnerd ['hUn3t]
     /hUnrd/
1000: dusent ~ dusend ['du:z=nt]
      /duuznd/

(/V/ stands for dialectal variation between [v] and [b], derived from what in
Old Saxon was written as a barred "b" and probably was pronounced as bilabial
fricative [ß], like Modern Spanish intervocalic "v" or "b".)

NB: Vowels tend to be markedly nasalized before /m/, /n/ and /N/, though
usually not as strongly as in Afrikaans.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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