LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (01)

Wed Feb 14 16:47:10 UTC 2001

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.FEB.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Kahn, Gabriele [GKahn at easy.de]
Subject: Language death

I wholeheartedly agree with Ian on most points, although I don't see why
being trilingual would be any problem for children. My own children grew up
that way, as they had a German mother and a Dutch father and lived in the
USA for eight years. There are plenty of Kurdish immigrant children in
Germany, for example, who speak both Kurdish and Turkish and then learn
German, too. These are both examples, however, for children who are
bilungual already and learn their third language at the age of five or so,
so maybe that's different.
As a child, I heard a special version of Platt spoken in my village (in the
Solling area of Southern Lower Saxony) among some of the older people, but I
doubt whether anyone still speaks it now. Somehow, at some point
(coincidentally, when television become popular?), people seem to have
thought they weren't doing their children a favour by talking to them in
what was considered a crude peasant language instead of "proper" German.
Also, I have a suspicion that they didn't mind being able to talk so the
children wouldn't understand...
Perhaps we should start a world-wide movement promoting ethnic languages as
"cool". Movies, rap songs, video games featuring Sollinger Platt - hey,
maybe there's even money in it!

Man jümmer tau,
Gabriele

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From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L

Roger Thijs wrote:

> The result in N. Belgium compared with the North of France (Westhoek):
> 1815: both:     - street: dialect variants of the Dutch family
>                        - cultural top: French
> So the starting position was very similar; the result is quite different
> though:
> 2001: N. France:    - street French only (some people above 75
> eventually speak a Flemish dialect in family circle)
> 2001: N. Belgium:   - street: Dutch, Belgian Dutch and it's dialects
>                         - cultural top: Dutch   (economic top: switching
> to English)

A few comments on those statements. First, there was a significant Dutch
speaking 'cultural top' in Flanders, both in Belgium and in France,
throughout the 19th and 20th century.
Second, in French Flanders it's not just some people above 75 who speak
'Vlaemsch'; the Euromosaic Report (http://campus.uoc.es/euromosaic/) states
that 'Flemish is spoken in the north-west of France by an estimated
population of 20,000 daily speakers and 40,000 occasional speakers'. On a
total number of about 150,000 people living in the Flemish language area,
that's quite a lot actually.
Third: fortunately I never heard of an 'economic top' in Flanders using
English outside business situations...

Tom McRae wrote:

> In Scotland I'll bet that schoolkids are still persecuted for daring to
> speak a Scots dialect in front of teachers. This was certainly the case in
> the 1940's and 50's when we were beaten with a strap, 'the tawse' if we
did
> not speak in 'standard English'. I am pleased to say it did not achieve
its
> goal, thank heaven. Once out of scholastic restrictions we all reverted to
> Scots I hope this is still the case.

Before WWII in some schools in Zeeland, kids had to pay five cents every
time a teacher 'caught' them on speaking Zeeuws. Unfortunately a far more
succesful method of banning the language from the playgrounf then just beat
them, because it affected the parents as well. Five cents was the price of a
bread back then! Reason enough to switch to (corrupt) Dutch at home. And on
top of that: the teacher has studied up north, in Holland, so he must know
what's right for the children.
Strange enough, the latter is still very much the case in Zeeland. Teachers
mostly come from outside Zeeland and take no interest what so ever in the
regional language...

Marco Evenhuis

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From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" (was "Language death") LOWLANDS-L,
13.FEB.2001 (04)

Roger and Colin,

It is undoubtedly true that minority languages gain
considerably from being associated with 'nationalism',
but this is only the case if the people associated
with nationalism realize it! I could write a book on
this, but I do know that many Scottish Nationalists
would have no interest in Scots, and of those who do
many would deny that their interest in Scots and in
Scottish independence are linked in any way. Scottish
Nationalism seems, at least so far, to be based on
economic rather than cultural arguments.

My point is that some language movements are
inextricably linked with 'nationalism' of some sort,
but others are not. Scots activists would probably
think they would lose support if their cause was
linked to Scottish Nationalism. There is no doubt
that, in the long term, the cause of spoken Irish as a
regular means of communication was damaged severely by
its association with Irish Nationalism, an association
which many Irish Nationalists and Irish Language
activists were never truly comfortable with. Certainly
I am turned off Ulster-Scots by any association with
Ulster Unionism (in other words 'British Nationalism'
in Northern Ireland, or even 'Ulster Nationalism') -
in other words I, like many others, separate my
political views completely from the culture I enjoy. I
have already resisted several attempts to assign me,
'Ulster-Scots activists' or 'Ulster-Scots speakers' to
any particular political or social group and will
continue to do so.

In other words, if your lesser-used language is not
associated with a political movement, you have to take
different approaches to promoting it. It seems that
the majority in northern Belgium had no difficulty
with the concept that Dutch should *replace* French -
likewise with Catalan vis-a-vis Spanish in Catalonia
and the Balearics (but not in Valencia). However,
although I am a great fan of the Scots tongue and am
keen to see it used regularly, I do not propose that
it should *replace* English, or even that it should be
used in all contexts. Business meetings of the future
will take place in English, computers will use English
- even if you don't think that should be the case, the
fact is it *will* be. Parents and governments will,
quite rightly, look down on any attempts to revive or
preserve minority languages which threaten their
children's knowledge of English.

I am not actually suggesting that children should be
schooled in one language and use another at home -
it's just that in the example I used it was the only
realistic option. Nobody in Armagh speaks Irish now,
so you have to teach children Irish from an early age
(even if that means they will be 'diglossic' rather
than 'bilingual') so that, in a generation's time,
there *will* be Irish-speaking parents and eventually
true bilingualism can become an option once again. You
can't get round the fact that some of the essence of
the language will be gone, because it already has gone
(Irish has, for example, lost its distinct spectrum of
colours - colour names are now expressed on a
one-to-one basis with English equivalents, rather than
on their own scale).

In the case of Scots, that needn't necessarily be the
case - indeed it is more likely, as Ron says, that
children will enter English-speaking school as Scots
speakers. That is my point - teachers, advisers,
parents, authorities and everyone else who counts
should be fully aware that such bilingualism presents
no danger to the child - in other words, awa wi the
tawse!

On the other hand, the reality is, whether we like it
or not, that everyone in future will be diglossic to a
certain extent, particularly in English-speaking
countries. For reasons outlined above, English (albeit
a slightly dodgy, non-literary version) will be the
only medium of communication in certain contexts.

The case of Dutch in Belgium is probably rather
different from the case of Scots or Gaelic in the UK
anyway. I wonder, in fact, how well Dutch would have
developed in Belgium if:

a) Belgium did not have a Dutch-speaking neighbour
b) French, instead of English, had retained its
position as 'World Language'

You would know the answer to this much better than I!
Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Thanks for your interest in this topic.  This has been a thought-provoking
exchange.

I believe that those who care about lesser-used languages and would like them
to survive need to face facts and somehow deal with existing obstacles.

For example, irrespective of our own enthusiasm and lofty ideas, and
irrespective of official recognition, there is still a majority of people,
including those who grew up with minority and regional languages, who consider
the use of minority and regional languages frivolous or "not serious" (i.e.,
only good for jokes and folksy entertainment), and that there are those who
consider it an obstacle or threat to "progress" and "success."  The task at
hand then seems to be to convince these people of the importance of continuing
the use of these languages and to do so without threatening their basic value
systems.  How would you go about doing that?

Also, no matter what you and I may think and wish, the majority of people
still associate the use of "power" languages versus "powerless" languages with
social class, simply with power or the lack of it.  In most people's views,
there are clear incentives associated with the use of power languages:
limitless formal education, higher social standing, economic success.  It is
in many cases also associated with urban and certainly metropolitan living,
something to which a large percentage of young people in rural and small-town
settings will always aspire.  What kinds of incentives are there to present in
the promotion of those language varieties that are associated with lower
socio-economic class, politically disadvantaged ethnic minorities and
economically disadvantaged rural areas?

Certainly in the past, members of linguistic minorities *needed* to be
bilingual because of pressures from two sides: (1) needing to use the elite
language variety in certain settings to gain access and respectibility (e.g.,
while working in the big city), and (2) needing to use the minority/regional
language variety to retain social acceptability in their native communities
(e.g., on visits back home in the country).  Coming home and "talking city"
used to be as unacceptable as "talking country" in the big city.  (There is a
well-known Low Saxon exclamation that has been made into a song: _Mien Gott!
He kann keen Plattdüütsch mehr!_ ["Good God! He's forgotten his Low
German!"])  Although in some instances this pressure to be bilingual continues
(e.g., for African Americans needing to sound "White" in educational and
professional settings but being required to sound "Black" in most African
American settings), I am under the impression that in other instances pressure
from minority/regional language communities is weakening.  For instance, the
generations of our parents and grandparents no longer insisted on us using Low
Saxon/Low German even if we spoke it as a first language.  It was accepted as
a given that children and grandchildren answer in German to questions given in
Low Saxon, and some parents and grandparents themselves switched to German
"for the sake of the kids" and used Low Saxon only amongst themselves.  (It is
the scenario Gabriele describes above.)  I hear that this has been happening
in Germany's Frisian and Sorbian communities as well.  In other words, in many
or most cases, insistence to stick with the native language at home had been
eroded or is in a state or gradual erosion.  Can such insistence be
reestablished once it is weakened or gone?  If so, how?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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