LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 16.FEB.2001 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

 ======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 16.FEB.2001 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 14.FEB.2001 (02)

Criostoir et al,

I hope other members will forgive us discussing Irish, but I do feel
the issues are similar to those for other languages.

There are two fundamental points to any linguistic study:
1) All languages are equal in the needs of their users
2) Language is about communication

There are far-reaching consequences here.

English is the language of international business and computing. Fact.
There is no point in lesser-used languages (or any others, for that
matter) trying to compete with English in such arenas - to do so would
hinder communication (point 2), but it does not make other languages
inferior (point 1). It is simply that 'World English' (a slightly
simplified Americanized version) is the one used. English itself has
had to borrow hundreds of thousands of terms from other languages over
time because it was not used in the contexts they were used in
(Latinate legal terms, Greek medical terms, localized terms for things
found by colonizers such as 'chocolate' or 'bungalows'). Likewise it
is futile for supporters of lesser-used languages to pile money and
resources into developing their own terms for English words in these
arenas - they will happen naturally, and usually though not always the
English will be borrowed direct (eg German 'Website', 'Internet',
'Links', 'downloaden' BUT Scots 'wabsteid'). I do get concerned when
activists get bogged down in arguments about such pointless issues
when there is so much work to be done making their lesser-used
languages more relevant to modern society generally. These languages
will never be relevant in scientific journals or documents on
international management techniques. They *can* be relevant in general
society - in the home, in pubs and clubs, on the sportsfield etc.

At a certain level national languages, particularly English, will
always be used - because of point 2). Lesser-used languages have to
target their areas of use carefully - based on the genuine needs of
their users rather than on trying to compete with others.

If we take Irish, the signs are encouraging, although you still wonder
whether it might be a little too late. For a long time activists in
Northern Ireland have annoyed reasonable people (even Catholic
Nationalists) by making apparently ludicrous demands. However, there
are indications with new adverts from the All-Ireland Language Board
(simply depicting Irish being used in a restaurant for example - no
threat to anybody, just genuine use) and other policies that are being
suggested that maybe, just maybe, the right people are leading Irish
the right way, so that one day it will again be heard in the right
cultural context (e.g. Gaelic games, where at present it often does
not go beyond a symbolic level) and in the right social context (it
would be nice to see the day when you would always hear Irish after a
trip to any major shopping centre on the island). Lowlanders may feel
they have something to learn from this.

Regards,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: Ian James Parsley [parsleyij at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 15.FEB.2001 (01) [D/E]

Georg,

> Under the title Language survival
> Gabriele Kahn and Ian James Parsley discussed aspects of
trilinguality of
> children. Gabriele Kahn did not see a principal problem, Ian James
Parsley had doubts if
> a full competence of three languages is possible.

Well, that's not quite what I meant (the fault is probably mine, I
wasn't clear enough). I don't doubt that a full competence in three
languages is possible, but I do doubt that it is possible *at the same
time*. It could be that the children get so used to 'switching' that
the 'changeover' of second language happens quite naturally and within
minutes. However, I know that to 'change' from having Scots as my
second language to either German or Spanish takes me *days*. On a
recent trip to Spain I could hardly ask for directions at the airport
because the words just didn't come to me, and it was a good 48 hours
before I was remotely confident. However, after a week I would have
had trouble switching into Scots or German immediately.

> And it does not go really fully automatically - parents apparently
do invest
> more time in the language aspects of education than  in a standard
> one-language situation.

I think this backs up my point to an extent (actually it's not really
*my* point, it's other researchers'). The point is that it *would* go
fully automatically if the children were *bilingual*. Once they have
to be trilingual (or multilingual) then more time and effort will have
to be spent training them to recognize one language from another and
ensuring that they do not use words from one in another.

Or not, as the case may be? I await responses with interest!

Regards,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

You wrote:

> I don't doubt that a full competence in three
> languages is possible, but I do doubt that it is possible *at the same
> time*.

I know exactly the experience you are relating.  "At the same time" is the
operative phrase here.  Yes, it is very familiar to me.  However, I have
noticed in my own case that foreign languages compete for a place only then
when they are still at a type of intensive learning stage.  I can
comfortably switch between three languages.  If I learn another one and my
mind is really preoccupied with this intensive learning process, the
language that occupied that compartment previously is thrown out, at least
temporarily.  However, once this new language passes a certain mark after
which it becomes virtually second nature it seems to be shifted from the
learning compartment to the compartment of fluent languages, and a new
language may move into the vacated compartment.  This is not to say that I
stop learning any of the languages.  It only means that my mind is no
longer preoccupied with learning those that have moved from the basement
into the penthouse.  However, I think that children, certainly younger
ones, seem to have a much easier time with this, and to us adults it may
seem as though they acquire three languages at the same time, comfortably.

I wrote about the Israeli family.  I need to add that the three children
are raising their own native Hebrew speakers now, children that are not or
hardly influenced by the first languages of their parents and grandparents.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
    to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
    <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
    type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================