LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (05) [E]

Tue Feb 20 20:24:48 UTC 2001

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L O W L A N D S - L * 20.FEB.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at starmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 20.FEB.2001 (03) [E]

At 08:14 20/02/01 -0800, Ian James Parsley wrote:

>Fabra was clearly a truly remarkable man and
>remains held in very high esteem among modern Catalan
>language activists - they assure me that Scots is
>highly unlikely to produce such a great man to
>standardize it!!!

I don't think personal greatness is the issue here - even if such a
person appeared, there would be strong opposition from some parts of
the Scots-language movement. Consider, for example, C. I. Macafee's
piece "Leave the Leid Alane" in the latest edition of Lallans. I
personally was glad to see it refuted, in the same issue, by John
Tait.

Anyone who tried this...

>He adopted the
>Barcelona dialect as the one to base the standard
>grammar and vocabulary on, but ensured that all
>spellings were truly reflective of all dialects. He
>deliberately adopted words and terms that were
>different from Castilian where they were still in use
>in some dialects (even if not in Barcelona), or even
>where they had a common literary use.

or its equivalent in Scotland, would be beaten mercilessly with the
(misleading) term "synthetic Scots" until he recanted of his heresy.

*********************************************************************
  Colin Wilson                  the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
                                the barra wadna row its lane
  writin fae Aiberdein,         an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
  the ile capital o Europe      lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
*********************************************************************

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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language survival" LOWLANDS-L, 19.FEB.2001 (01) [E]

Ron,

You wrote:

> However, I would like to add that I feel that people ought not be
chided
> for using what they feel is the native choice wherever there is a
choice,
> as long as they are still understood, and as long as we do not speak
about
> outright, organized engineering attempts.

Well this is undoubtedly true. I would in fact encourage the native
choice where possible, but only on the proviso that it is used
'properly'.

Again, the obvious example with Scots is 'speir'. 'Speir' has actually
died out in Ulster, but because it does appear in Ulster-Scots poetry
and it is still current in other dialects of Scots, I have no problem
with attempts at rekindling it here. I *do* have a problem, however,
when it is rekindled and used as a direct equivalent to the English
'ask'. Again, we're talking about spectrums. English has 'consult,
request, ask and inquire', Scots has 'speir, pree and ask' - this is
far from a perfect example, but my point is that there is no direct
one-to-one correspondence. Any attempt to apply one goes against
native usage and is actually a surrender to the dominant language,
whose semantic system the dominated language is now adopting.

This is the crux of the issue. Too few people here understand that if
you adopt English semantic boundaries in Scots, then you are thinking
in English, and you might as well use English. Too few are aware than
consistent one-to-one correspondences are rare. What is 'give' is
Scots? 'Gie'? How about 'Give me the salt'? 'See us the saut owre'.
Again, even the simplest of words lacks a one-to-one correspondence.

Another example might be 'ettle', which has now taken on a number of
extra meanings in Ulster texts. However, that is maybe not so serious
because there has been no loss, in this case, of an idiomatic
distinction.

So yes, native speakers of course do not have to be linguists. But
really people engaged in rekindling obsolete and obsolescent words
*do* have to be aware of their idiomatic and grammatical usage
(whether in another dialect or another era), as well as taking account
of what native speakers feel about them.

Best regards,
--------------------
Ian James Parsley

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language survival

Ian,

Thanks.  You make some interesting points (above), and I agree in general.

Of course, if there is to be any language planning, such as standardization,
it ought to be under the guidance of people with some linguistics background
as well as high degrees of proficiency, at least with extensive consultation
of genuine native speakers.  Only that way can improper choices be avoided.

You wrote:

> Too few are aware than
> consistent one-to-one correspondences are rare. What is 'give' is
> Scots? 'Gie'? How about 'Give me the salt'? 'See us the saut owre'.
> Again, even the simplest of words lacks a one-to-one correspondence.

There are numerous such examples in the case of Low Saxon (Low German) vs
German too.

If you say, _Geev mi (maal) dat Sult_ (= German _Gib mir (mal) das Salz_) it
would be all right if the request came for instance from someone cooking;
he/she wants someone to fetch the salt.  Similarly, _Reck mi (maal) dat Sult_
(= German _Reich mir (mal) das Salz_) would assume passing the Salt across
some barrier or distance.  It is all right to render 'Pass me the salt' (said
at the table) as _Gib mir (mal bitte) das Salz_ or _Reich mir (mal bitte) das
Salz_ in German.  The authentic Low Saxon expression in this context would be
_Do mi maal dat Sult_ ("Do me once the salt"), and the literal German
translation *_Tu mir mal das Salz_ would be incorrect.

Similarly, I have heard and read 'Take a seat' rendered as _Sett di daal_
("Set yourself down") or even _Set di hen_ (= German _Setz dich hin_).  _Sett
di daal_ is all right, but it is rather general and not quite idiomatically
correct for '(Walk across the room and) Take a seat'.  You might say _Sett di
daal_ to someone who is already standing next to the seat, for instance a
pupil who keeps standing up.  In offering someone a seat it is proper to say,
_Gah(t) sitten_ ("Go to sit") or, under German influence the deferential form
_Gaht Se sitten_.

What is needed in textbooks is a good assortment of such phrases to illustrate
proper idiomatic usage and to drive home the point that word-for-word
translations from German are frequently inappropriate and incorrect, are
hallmarks of what is known as "Patentplatt" (Low Saxon made up on the basis of
German).  Emphasizing this point seems particularly important where people's
minds are still haunted by the beliefs that Scots is a form of English, Low
Saxon (Low German) is a form of German, and dialects of the same language have
word-for-word correspondence.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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