LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2001 (02) [E]

Sat Feb 24 19:16:33 UTC 2001

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From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]

At 03:55 PM 02/23/01 -0800, Margaret Tarbet wrote:

Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?  I've
never.  'Bobbing' and 'ducking'/'dookin', yes, but never 'dunking'.
I only know 'dunk' as a transitive verb, and always in connection
with Germanic culture and coffee (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa,
Minnesota,Texas hill country).   Anything else (e.g., bread in gravy
or soup, etc.) has always been 'dip', or if in the sense of
'drench':  'sop'/'soop' or 'soak'/'sook'.

>'Dunk' *is* American, isn't it?

I'd almost bet not, just remembering where it was popular before the
telly homogenised everything.  Or if it is American, it's
Lowlandic-American.

Very interesting.  I was surprised at the theory that the word may be
borrowed into American English, since the usage is so pervasive.  We only
say "dunking" for apples at Halloween, and I've never heard any other
variant such as "ducking".  In addition to the coffee shop chain called
Dunkin' Donuts, I've also heard "to take a dunk".  Everywhere I've
travelled and lived in North America, everyone has pretty well understood
and used the verb to dunk, i.e. to dip, and although it has an almost
interchangeable meaning with the latter, yet dunk seems to be used in more
colloquial contexts.  This fact alone would not necessarily point to a
borrowed origin.  However, when I looked for it in my large Funk & Wagnalls
1914 US dictionary, I find Dunkers, but no dunking.  So perhaps it is
borrowed from Rhinelandic or Lowlandic immigrants.

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-312-5204  Fax: 905-525-6671 http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
"More buildings are destroyed every year by termites than by fires"

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From: Ethan Barrett [barrett at kitcarson.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2001 (07) [E]

Intersting!  In the appalachians of Virginia we commonly said bobbing for
apples, but dunking was occaisionally said in reference to the halloween
tradition.  Dunking is used in Virginia when speaking of soup and crackers
or bread or when speaking of cookies and milk.  Oh!  That is interesting!
The British call cookies buscuits. Where did the word 'cookie' come from?
Scotland?  Where before that?

-----Original Message-----
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Margaret wrote:

> Have you actually heard 'dunking for apples', Ron (or anyone)?

I have indeed, though I agree that it seems a bit strange, so I wonder if
it
has been "contaminated" by non-American "ducking for apples."  Yes, usually

'to dunk' is transitive (as in "Dunkin' Donuts"), but perhaps it can be
both
transitive and intransitive, as can Low Saxon _duken_ and German _tauchen_
(though transitively they tend to have the prefixes _in-_ and _ein-_
respectively).

A cursory web search brought up "dunking for apples" at these sites among
others:

http://halloweenfreak.homepage.com/halloween4.html
http://ashland-city.k12.oh.us/ahs/classes/panorama/97-10-17/pg2.html
http://132.183.145.103/forum_2/LandauKleffnerSynF/HavinofallthingsFUN.html
http://www.bsaboston.org/happening/familycamp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~SNE/bmc.htm

Go figure!

Reinhard/Ron

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

> I tried to think of the Low Saxon (Low German) equivalent of
> German _(ein)tunken_ in the sense of 'to dip pieces of food in

> soup, sauce, gravy, cocoa, etc.'.  *_Dunken_ or *_dünken_?
> Nope.  I don't think so, even though  it works
> phonologically.  I would use either /dip-/ _dippen_
> (cf. English 'to dip') or /stip-/ _stippen_ (with the
> additional meaning of 'to touch lightly,
> with a fingertip').  (_Dippen_ seems to have the German
> cognate _tupfen_ 'to dab', 'to dot'. Could /stip-/ be one of
> those elusive roots with the s- prefix?)

could very easily be, they are a lot of them.  Of course, on the
other hand, it's not easy to tell those apart from chance
resemblances.

> Aha!  So perhaps Standard German _tunken_ and Pennsylfanisch
> _dunke_ are cognates of Low Saxon _duken_ and Scots 'dook',
> only "Ingveonically n-deprived"!  What do you think, folks?

It's problematic-  Ingveonic Nasalschwund und Ersatzdehnung only
happened in front of spirants: f, th, s, as in finf/fiif, uns/us
etc.  There isn't any parallel for n disappearing before k.

On the other hand- if we go way back, to Proto-Indo-European,
which frequently put the curious n-infix -into- verbs under some
circumstances (e.g. stand/stood, Latin frango/fractus 'break',
etc.).  Unfortunately, that should happen only in strong verbs.
So  it's a stretch, but a thought.
The Duden etymologic dictionary connects _tunken_ to a root
*teng-, 'to moisten', related to Lat. _tingere, tinctura_ 'to
moisten'.  Now, etymology is a somewhat statistical science- we
can be confident that the bulk of etymologies are sound, but
unless a word has something rather unique about it, you can't be
sure if any individual etymology is correct.  Still, the Duden
etymology works better than what I suggested.

Steff

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