LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 10.JAN.2001 (08) [E]

Wed Jan 10 23:11:40 UTC 2001

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: Margaret Tarbet [oneko at mindspring.com]
> Subject: "Etymology"
>
> Sandy argues that 'keik' doesn't map onto 'kijken' and I wouldn't
> presume to gainsay.  But, as I learned the word, 'keik' certainly
> seems to map well onto 'look' and 'kiek' in the sense of 'take a
> look'.  'kiek mal', 'have a look', 'hae a wee keik'.

Yes, but in the "hae a keek" and "tak a keek" constructions the
word is being used as a noun, so the question of duration is
avoided. You can't use the verb "tae keek" as the equivalent of
"look" because the duration is wrong.

Scots writers who are deficient in native Scots idiom tend to
overuse the "tak/hae a (wee) keek" constructions in order to
try and sound "more Scots" by avoiding the word "look" (or its
Scots equivalent, "leuk"), which is "too English" (really
meaning that if they don't avoid as much English as possible
their Scots will soon look like English written with Scots
words). This results in the stiff, repetitive sort of Scots
that's often seen these days.

It's a shame because Scots has plenty of other words which could
stand in place of the noun form of "keek": "skance", "glint",
"went" &c. (though all with their own shades of meaning), and
the expressiveness of the more natural verb form of "keek" tends
to get lost. "Glint" is particularly worthy of consideration by
writers because it has a common diminutuve form "glintie" which
doesn't work so well with the other words, hence the
preponderance of constructions like "a wee keek", where "a
glintie" would be more succint.

Sandy
They should hae fand it, an kent that that black nicht was the
foreglint o brichter days tae come.
                          - D. Gibb Mitchell,
                        'Sermons in Braid Scots'

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From: niels.winther at dfds.dk
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology"

From: niels winther [niels.winther at dfds.dk]
Subject: etymology

Floor wrote:
> In addition, a Dutch word for photograph
> is 'kiekje', > which is in fact very close
> to the Scots use mentioned by Sandy...

and in Frisian as well:
_in kykje nimme_ = take a picture

in Danish,
subst: _kik_
infin: _kikke_, _kige_
similar form in Norw. and Swed. incl. dialects.
meaning as in Scots.

If the original idea of _keek_
were a quick sideways (one-eyed!) glance
then perhaps somebody has an idea how to connect to
IE _kaiko-_ = one-eyed ?

rgds
niels

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From: frank verhoft [frank_verhoft at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Beste Laaglanders,

Floor wrote:
>In addition, a Dutch word for photograph is 'kiekje',
which is in fact
>very close to the Scots use mentioned by Sandy...

The Dutch word "kiekje" (snapshot, "amateurfoto")
seems to refer to a professional photographer:
"kiekje: [amateurfoto] <1899> genoemd naar de Leidse
fotograaf Israël David Kiek (1811-1899). Betekende
oorspronkelijk 'groepsfoto'".
(Van Dale Etymologisch Woordenboek, 1997)

Maybe the similarity with the Dutch dialectical form
_kieken_ helped to establish the meaning of _kiekje_.
But this is nothing more than a very wild guess.

_Kieken_ was quite a common dialectic word for
_kijken_, which, btw, is found back in the lovely
Modern Dutch word/exclamation _kiekeboe!_.
"kiekeboe: [uitroep] <kiekebeu 1665> van kieken, dial.
nevenvorm van kijken + het tussenwerpsel boe!"
(Van Dale Etymologisch Woordenboek, 1997)
If I'm not mistaken, in English this is _peekaboo_. Is
this exclamation known and/or used in Scots?

I couldn't find any referrences to Scots, but the
English neighbors had (Middle English) _to kike_, and
_to keek_ is an obsolete English verb.

Sandy wrote:
> It's important to understand that Scots "keek" is
_not_
> a cognate of the Dutch "kijken", ie it doesn't mean
"look".

The (purely) amateur of linguistics and languages in
me was quite puzzled reading this, because he thought
cognates don't need to have the same meaning in the
respective modern/contemporary languages, only the
same lexical origin.
E.g. English _wife_ and Dutch _wijf_ have the same
etymology and belong to the same semantic field, but -
at least here in Antwerpen, Belgium - the latter has a
very pejorative and rude meaning. Anglophonic
beginners of Dutch shouldn't confuse them :-). While I
think that in West Flanders the word _wuuf_ comes
closer to the English use of the word _wife_.
Furthermore, the Dutch (dialectical) word _weef_
means widow.
Please do correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought these
words are cognates.

> I've seen some actual examples of beginners in Scots
> making this mistake and producing incorrect Scots.
> Although Scots "keek" is used more generally than
the
> English "peep" or "peek" (eg Scots for looking-glass
is
> "keekin-gless"), it really means to look very
briefly or
> momentarily at something. <...>

Best regards,

Frank

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Frank:

> _Kieken_ was quite a common dialectic word for
> _kijken_, which, btw, is found back in the lovely
> Modern Dutch word/exclamation _kiekeboe!_.
> "kiekeboe: [uitroep] <kiekebeu 1665> van kieken, dial.
> nevenvorm van kijken + het tussenwerpsel boe!"
> (Van Dale Etymologisch Woordenboek, 1997)
> If I'm not mistaken, in English this is _peekaboo_.

I vaguely remember (from eons past) hearing _Kiekebu!_ or _Kieke-buh!_ in
Northern Germany also, and I guess that would be almost the same pronunciation
as that of Dutch _kiekeboe!_.  It is used while playing with infants and
toddlers, as is _Mumme, mumme, mumme ... KIEKS!_ (saying the last part while
coming out of "hiding").  I wonder if the first word in the latter is related
to the German verb _vermummen_ 'disguise (by means of a costume)', the Low
Saxon (Low German) verb _vermumme(l)n_ 'id.' and the English verb "mum" 'id.',
'to play in a pantomime' < Old French _momer_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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