LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 23.JAN.2001 (01) [A/E]

Tue Jan 23 15:31:23 UTC 2001

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Grammar

Ian James Parsley wrote:

>I have never come across a case of a language 'adding complexity'.<

I happen to have just read the following quotation from Theo Vennemann
(1975) in Aldo Scaglione's book "The Theory of German Word Order from the
Renaissance to the Present", an absolutely unputdownable read:

"The conclusion that English has become simpler cannot, of course, be
accepted. Languages, if anything, are evolving toward greater rather than
lesser complexity ... Languages develop cyclically from "morphology with few
grammatically functional word order rules" to "word order with few
morphological rules" and back again, with sound change being the causal
factor throughout."

And:

"First sound change grinds off the morphology and thus forces the grammar to
respond by substituting word order rules in order to counter the threat of
ambiguity. Next sound change degrades the positionally fixed independent
function words of the language into a new morphology, which makes the word
order rules redundant and leads to their loss, And so on indefinitely."

Unfortunately there is no indication of the timescale of this cyclic process
and only a couple of examples based on Latin are cited.

It occurs to me that although "independent function words" can become
degraded and become part of new words the result is not always what one
might think of as "morphology", ie a variable or function marker. Scaglione
cites Latin "cum te" => "tecum". Dutch "thuis" ("home") and "thans" ("now",
literally "at hand") seem to be similar formations. (Cf. also "blijven",
German "bleiben", where the prefix "be-" or "bi-" has become assimilated to
the verb stem.) This type of  "condensation" is also interfered with by
other mechanisms. Thus we have the phrase "of a sudden" giving way to
"suddenly" and (especially in AmE) "at present" giving way to "presently".
So we observe the loss of the preposition but by the application of the
general rule "adverbs end in -ly". Of course, in "common" speech the
adverbial ending "-ly" is often omitted, so we might imagine its eventual
total loss.

Unfortunately, again, there is no indication in the passages cited in the
book of how sound change drives the phenomena.

I have recently noted, on TV and radio, a tendency to mis-use prepositions.
I have just heard "He devoted a lot of time for me", where the normal usage
is "to me". Can we imagine this as the start of a phenomenon whereby
prepositions will be reduced in number, perhaps to a single one, then
disappear, leaving a need for a morphological device to restore clarity?

I have just finished translating a fiendishly difficult German patent (ie a
patent in fiendishly difficult German) and accompanying documents into
English. A large section of the patent had been copied into a letter but
word endings had been switched around so that although they still made
grammatical sense the logical sense was completely different. In the patent
itself there were (or weren't!) "-n"s missing from dative plural nouns. I
conclude that although the morphology of German apparently makes it possible
to compose very long and complex sentences, transmission errors ultimately
destroy the sense.
John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Edwin Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 22.JAN.2001 (03) [E]

At 07:36 PM 01/22/01 -0800, Kevin wrote:
>But most English speakers would understand such a construction.  In fact, I
>can think of several modern English examples, including children's songs,
>that use this word order (notably, all the examples I could think of involve
>going or coming, and are all from songs or rhymes):

I guess this would be an example of where English syntax is more flexible
than HG!

>From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
>  This is of interest to point 2). I find German a precise language, and
>German speakers a precise people. Only in German-speaking countries
>have I come across TV schedules with progs starting at *seven* past
>the hour! Only in German-speaking countries have I come across an
>answering machine message informing me that I have no longer than 25
>seconds to leave a message!

There's a story I once heard about Stalin who once travelled to Berlin as a
youth to some convention.  He is said to have claimed that the Revolution
would never start in Germany, because when it came time to seize the
railway stations (the main centres of communication in those days), the
Germans revolutionaries would all line up.  Apparently, as the story goes,
the conductor had failed to come and take their tickets and the Germans
would not leave the train when they arrived in Berlin.........

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From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 19.JAN.2001 (03) [E]

Hi, all

Ron said about the ease of deriving a verb from a noun in English, that
perhaps
it's not that easy in Afrikaans, and because of the scarcity of
morphological
marking.

I can say "Gebruik gedilde mosterd" and "Dil die vis", but both forms
might be
misunderstood or perceived as being foreign.

Yet, "Sout die vleis/Botter die panne/Peper die filet/Kerrie die
hoender" are commonly
used.  Also "Hy is lekker ge-olie/gekoring/gepeper" (i.e. drunk) and "Sy
het my met vrae
gepeper" (i.e. blasted me with questions).

I can use the forms, "Die kerrie is oor-gemasala" / "Ek verkies my
melktert gevanielja
en nie ge-amandel nie" but only where I'm quite sure the hearer has my
level of education
or is familiar with my mode of talking, or it might be misunderstood.

I also think that the more familiar speakers are with a noun, the easier
the verb derivation is
understood and accepted.

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Grammar"

Dear Lowlanders,

Elsie wrote:

> Ron said about the ease of deriving a verb from a noun in English, that
> perhaps
> it's not that easy in Afrikaans, and because of the scarcity of
> morphological
> marking.

No, that is not what I had said.  I had investigated the validity of my own
theory that the less morphological marking there is the more easily word class
boundaries can be crossed.  I had proposed that English affords relative ease,
more ease than other Germanic languages, in crossing these boundaries, such as
deriving a verb from a noun.  I had then proposed to investigate if Afrikaans
affords similar ease, as opposed to Dutch which retains most morphological
marking.  If English and Afrikaans, both of which have discarded most
morphological marking, are more flexible re word classes, then this may mean
that my theory is correct.  I feel that the Afrikaans examples above point in
that direction.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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