LL-L: "Shared features" LOWLANDS-L, 05.JUN.2001 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: niels winther [niels.winther at dfds.dk]
Subject: Shared features

Ron, you wrote:

>>>

I doubt very much that Turkish _kirbaç_ (and variants of in in other Turkic
languages) is derived from Iranian (Farsi, Tajik, etc.) _chabuk_.  The
expected form would be something like *_çabuk_ (/CabIq/).  _Kirbaç_ looks very
much native Turkic to me.  I will see if I can find its etymology.  Likewise,
I doubt very much that there is a link between Swahili _kiboko_ and Iranian
_chabuk_.  _Kiboko_ appears to be a native (Bantu) word with the two meanings
'hippopotamus' and 'hippopotamus skin whip', and as such it shows typical
Bantu noun prefixing, using the prefixes _ki-_ (sg.) and _vi-_ (pl.) for
things, utensils.  The root appears to be /boko/.  Who said it was an Iranian
loan?

I do believe, though, that German _Krabatsch_ and Low Saxon _Klabatsch_ are
likely to be derived Turkic (probably Checheneg) loans.

<<<

_kiboko_:

When animals take ki/vi as prefix it is normally to be regarded as a
diminutive,
since the ki/vi class is not the class for living creatures. In this case
there
isn't a *_boko_ in Kiswahili. I haven't checked with other Bantu-languages,
but
I trust that Frederick Johnson did that (Standard Swahili-English Dictionary;
1939) before he hesitatingly suggested this etymology. But you are rigth in
the
sense that it has been put in the ki/vi class because the _ch-_ of _chabuk_
has
been understood as palatized prefix _kia-_=_cha-_ / via-_=_vya-_, and you are
right in saying that it sounds very Bantu. It is fully naturalized.
Regarding Turkish - You are the specialist! I'm looking forward to see the
real
etymology.
Hope to see you back soon in full vigour.

best regards
niels

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From: niels winther [niels.winther at dfds.dk]
Subject: Shared features

Ron,  do you think there is a Uralo-Altaic / Indo-European connection here ?

Mg.: _korbács_ Tk.: _kIrbac_  / IE.: _kreu at -_ combined with _bak_ ?

rgds
niels

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Shared features

Niels,

Yes, it could be a case of nativization by way of reanalysis.  I had thought
of _ki-_/_-vi-_ as covering also perceptively misshapen creatures, and perhaps
that's what native speakers thought.

As for the Turkic area, I'm unable to get to the best etymological sources
right now.  However, I have found no cognate in the Eastern Turkic varieties,
and that makes me reconsider.

> I do believe, though, that German _Krabatsch_ and Low Saxon _Klabatsch_ > are
> likely to be derived Turkic (probably Checheneg) loans.

I got some interference from "Chechen" there.  :)  The name is "Pecheneg," and
especially our friends in Hungary are no doubt familiar with that, since the
Pecheneg, now extinct, participated in driving the Magyars westward and
participated in all sorts of raids.  If _Krabatsch_/_Klabatsch_ are Turkic
loans they probably aren't as old as that, may rather go back to the times of
the Ottoman Empire.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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