LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 28.JUN.2001 (06) [D/E]

Thu Jun 28 22:14:09 UTC 2001

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2001 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Dl7bk at aol.com
Subject: language varieties/tussentalen

Beste Laaglanders,                     (English summary below)

naar aanleiding van de bijdrage van Frank Verhoft en zijn vraag naar de
situatie in de Nederduitse gebieden geef ik hier een korte beschrijving van
de taalsituatie en de bijbehorende gevoelens van de sprekers in het
noord-westen van Duitsland (Emsland) en de grote steden in Noord-Duitsland.

Door de invloed van het Duits (of "Hoogduits") als standaardtaal vervaagt ook
bij 'native speakers' het taalgebruik steeds meer. Net als in het
(Nederlands) Fries bijv. het woord 'kaai' door 'sleutel' wordt vervangen,
verdwijnen in het Emsland woorden zoals "Gaunsdag" voor woensdag.

Ik heb bewust voor het woord "Gaunsdag" als voorbeeld gekozen omdat dit niet
onmiddelijk door het Duitse "Mittwoch" maar door de vernederduitste vorm
"Middeweek(e)" wordt vervangen. Er zijn dus twee talen die het Emslands
Nedersaksisch beinvloeden: Standaard Duits en een vorm van het Nederduits
(Nedersaksisch) die door de media wordt verspreid en meestal uit Hamburg,
Schleswig-Holstein en omstreken afkomstig is. De sterkste invloed komt echter
ongetwijfeld van het Standaard Duits.

Slachtoffer van deze (onbewuste?) houding "Ik wil wel, maar niet te sterk..."
zijn dan oer-nedersaksische termen zoals "verdwaeld" die bij jongere sprekers
in het Emsland niet meer of nauwelijks bekend zijn. Een 70-jarige zegt dus
"Ik buen verdwaeld" terwijl men van een 30-jarige hoort: "Ik heb mi verirrt".

In de grote steden als Hamburg is men wel trots op zijn regionale taalvorm
maar durft men toch niet al te sterk van de standaardtaal Duits af te wijken.
Hierdoor onstaat een mengvorm, het zogenaamde 'Missingsch'. Het Missingsch
gebruikt Duitse zinnen met daarin een aantal Nederduitse woorden: "Wat? Has'
die Mook schon leergetrunken? Ischa rein zu doll!"

Groeten

Zintus Sievering

English summary:

Following the discussion about language varieties which choose for a certain
form between dialect and standard language in Belgium and Holland, I give a
brief description of the situation in Northern Germany:

In Emsland, a region right at the Dutch border, people tend to replace old
Low Saxon words by standard German words. An example is the word for
wednesday "Gaunsdag" which nowadays is seldom heard. Instead of "Gaunsdag"
people refer to this day of the week as "Middeweek" which is a saxonized form
of the German "Mittwoch". It seems that people don't dare to use words or
forms which are very different from German, the language they are confronted
with in everyday life (work, media etc.).

In big cities like Hamburg this phenomenon leads to a mix of two languages
"Missingsch". Missingsch is standard German with some Low Saxon words.

Greetings

Zintus Sievering

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Zintus Sievering wrote above:

In de grote steden als Hamburg is men wel trots op zijn regionale
> taalvorm
> maar durft men toch niet al te sterk van de standaardtaal Duits af te
> wijken.
> Hierdoor onstaat een mengvorm, het zogenaamde 'Missingsch'. Het
> Missingsch
> gebruikt Duitse zinnen met daarin een aantal Nederduitse woorden: "Wat?
> Has'
> die Mook schon leergetrunken? Ischa rein zu doll!"

<...>

> In big cities like Hamburg this phenomenon leads to a mix of two
> languages
> "Missingsch". Missingsch is standard German with some Low Saxon words.

I certainly like your explanations, Zintus, but I don't think that the use of
"standard German" is appropriate here, because Missingsch is anything but
standard, though it is German.  Missingsch dialects are substandard and
low-prestige German dialects on Low Saxon substrates, low-prestige because
they are used by the working class that had been converted from using Low
Saxon to using German and had not managed Standard German due to traditionally
minimal opportunities with regard to formal education.

This is precisely why I stay away of using "Standard German" for anything but,
well ... the range of German varieties that are considered standard.  All
others are "German dialects."  This is also why I stay away from "High German"
vs "Low German," aside from the fact that "Low German" is an essentially
unscientific catchall name for dialects of Low Saxon and Low Franconian that
happen to be used within the borders of today's Germany.  This is why I prefer
"German" vs "Low Saxon" and "Limburgish" -- three languages irrespective of
artificial borders.

I grew up in working-class Hamburg, where at the time Missingsch predominated,
Low Saxon lingered in perpetual moribundity behind closed doors, and Standard
German was something one heard in the media, would strive for in formal
situations but would never really manage until one left that social
environment and "came up in the world."  When we spoke Missingsch, we always
thought we were speaking German, and we were, but those of us who also at
least understood Low Saxon were aware that what we were speaking was
oftentimes Low Saxon almost literally translated into German, with a Low Saxon
"accent," e.g., vowels more nasalized and lengthened before nasals and
liguids, final consonant clusters simplified, stop aspiration only
word-initially (e.g., _du kannst_ [du 'k`ã%ns] 'you can', cf. Standard German
[du 'k`anst], Low Saxon [du 'k`ã%ns]), with morphosyntactic features such as
non-distinction between dative and accusative, and frequent omission of
subject pronouns (e.g., _Kannst mich/mia ma die Tür aufmachng?_ 'Would you
mind opening the door for me?' [consistently either _mich_ or _mir_ for both
dative and accusative], cf. Standard German _Würdest du mir bitte die Tür
öffnen?_, Low Saxon _Kannst mi maal de Döör apenmaken/upmaken?_).

I do not believe that there is a definite borderline between Missingsch
varieties and Standard German; the two are on a continuum.  I know quite a few
people who speak what may qualify as Standard German but who still have a
Missingsch "accent" and translate some (Low-Saxon-derived) Missingsch
idiomatic phrases into Standard German.  Every time I visit Hamburg from
overseas, the first thing that hits me is the strong Low Saxon/Missingsch
"accent" with which most people speak German, and that the younger the
speakers are the less of an "accent" they have.  So I believe Missingsch is
moribund now.

The name Missingsch goes back to the times when the Saxon city of Meißen
(Sorbian _Mi{s^}no_), surrounded by Saxon-speaking countryside, had been
converted to German, and that German dialect was considered exemplary for the
entire region at that time.  To Saxon speakers then, talking Missingsch ("in
the manner of Meißen") meant the same as talking German (versus Saxon), but
the meaning later changed to "North German dialect" and subsequently to
"substandard German dialects on Low Saxon substrate."  I feel there is some
justification in comparing Missingsch to the _Stedsk_ or _Stedfrysk_ ("Urban
Frisian") contact varieties in the Netherlands that appear to be Dutch with
strong Frisian substrates and influences.

There is more than one Missingsch variety.  Most North German cities have or
had their own varieties.  I am under the impression that Missingsch is
retreating and may soon disappear altogether, as education and electronic
media keep promoting less regionally colored German.  From what I have been
reading lately I gather that two remaining varieties are those of Kiel,
Lübeck, Hamborg/Hamburg and Bremen, though I assume the Flensborg/Flensburg
variety (with added Danish elements) is not yet extinct.  I also understand
that what is often referred to as "Ruhr-Deutsch" is a group of Missingsch
dialects.  Also, I would classify "broad" Berlin German as a type of
Missingsch.

It is also worth noting that, at least in the past, what used to presented as
"Platt" in nationwide German TV programs, such as plays, was oftentimes
Missingsch, with the (desired?) effect that non-Northerners came to believe
they could "sort of" understand "Platt," that "Platt" was indeed German.
(It's like presenting Scottish English as "Scots" to non-Scots and then
saying, "I told you it's a sort of English.")  I was not the only person who
used to be furious about this and about the fact that actors who usually
performed in Low Saxon would allow themselves to be used in this way.  I am
not sure if this is still going on.  I hope it is not.  Last time I was in
Northern Germany I watched two Low Saxon plays on TV, and Missingsch was not
used in them.  I remember being asked by South Germans to speak some "Platt"
for them quaite some time ago.  They were at a loss when they did not
understand me at all, saying, "Nein, nicht so! So wie im Ohnsorg-Theater,
bitte!" ("No, not like that! Like (they speak) in the Ohnsorg Theater,
please!" -- Ohnsorg Theater being a Low Saxon theater in Hamburg.)  An
Austrian once asked me for a demonstration of "Platt" and then identified what
I had said as "eine Art Holländisch."  At least she was in the general
ballpark.

Samples of Missingsch can be found here:
Hamburg: http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/modkunst.htm
Ruhr Area: http://mailer.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/probe3a.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================