LL-L "Resources" 2001.11.06 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 08.NOV.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2001.11.07 (01) [E]

In message <3BE946CC.328F9297 at yahoo.com>, Lowlands-L
<sassisch at yahoo.com> writes
>> 2. Language courses
>> I'm also looking for critical surveys of language
>> courses, but not from a linguist or didactical point
>> of view, but from a politico-social one (in the
>> broadest sense of the word). To be more clear, I
>> wonder if there are publications that look at the
>> moral, political, and especially social values in
>> language courses throughout the years, decades,
>> centuries.

Looking at literacy education into a second language might turn up some
references: I can vaguely remember something about using Freire's
liberation education in California.  If that sounds useful, I will
excavate to that part of my office!

Best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years
time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From: "Silvah Starr" <leftside at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2001.11.07 (02) [E]

If you write a grammar book, make sure it also contains notions that
only
native speakers know...there are many things only native speakers can
know,
and that you don't find in traditional grammar books...

Silvah

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From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2001.11.07 (02) [E]

Frank,

Well, I'm not the list owner, but I would suggest we
deal with a lot of minority languages on the list, and
the issue of how to teach them (or even whether to
teach them at all) is a live one.

I hope Colin won't mind if I mention his 'Stertin Out
in Scots' (my spellings - Colin's may differ). I had
had the idea of a similar book, ie one using dialogue
to illustrate points of grammar, vocab and usage. I
think that was a good place to start, and Colin's made
a very good job of it.

The obsession here in Ireland with regard to the
Ulster variety of Scots has always been with
'dictionaries' (quotation marks deliberate). This is a
product of well-meaning activists heading up the drive
for recognition, but it is not actually a very
satisfactory way forward.

Jim Fenton's _Hamely Tongue_ (USAP: Newtownards, 1995
and 2001) is a minor masterpiece in that area. It is,
however, more a 'wordbook' than a 'dictionary', that
is to say only the Scots words appear, and their
meaning is then described (rather than a direct
Standard English equivalent given). Fenton's 40 years
plus of painstaking work involving a network of native
speakers is, in my opinion, as good as it can be done.

The obsession remains, however, with creating more
dictionaries (dare I suggest 'create' is the apt word
here?). But quite aside from the point that a fully
bilingual A-Z dictionary for a non-standardized
language is at best a thankless task, the point is
that vocabulary is only a minor part of language
learning.

Many people who first find out about Scots, or any
other minority language, are inclined to believe,
especially since it is so similar to the 'national
language', that all you need do to learn it is learn a
few items of vocabulary. Key points of grammar and
idiom are missed completely, and the result is a few
items of vocabulary thrown into an otherwise English
(High German/Dutch etc) sentence.

The other thing, however, that most minority languages
have in their favour (indeed very often the thing that
defines them as such) is a literary history. I think
this must play a key part in teaching them. Literature
is real, authentic stuff; it shows the language in a
true, respectful light; it gives an insight into the
thoughts of its speakers in ages past; and it is often
written to music (often a very effective way to teach
a language). Giving a language real, authentic
tradition (as opposed to an invented one) gives people
pride in it and makes them keener to learn it
properly. So often teaching programmes can focus on
the literature. With Ulster Scots, I have found that
quite successful.

Just a few thoughts!

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.geocities.com/parsleyij
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Ian wrote (above):

> Well, I'm not the list owner, but I would suggest we
> deal with a lot of minority languages on the list, and
> the issue of how to teach them (or even whether to
> teach them at all) is a live one.

I don't quite understand this, Ian, at least not the list owner part.
While I do occasionally try to reign in discussions that stray off, I'm
not in the habit of suggesting topics in my capacity as list "owner."
If I do so it is in my capacity as a participant with his own set of
interests.  Your suggestions are as good as mine.

While minority languages are not all we deal with here, several of our
"Lowlands" languages happen to be minority languages.  So, yes, I agree
with you that discussing how to teach them is a "hot" topic for many of
us.

I would take this one step farther by specifying it thus: "how to teach
minority languages that have been considered low-prestige (by the
majority), that lack standard varieties and that are closely related to
the power languages of their respective areas."  This specification
happens to be needed with at least Low Saxon (Low German) and Scots in
our area of interest.  To a degree it also applies to Frisian, although
the prestige part may be less important there, while fragmentation is a
real issue, and a burning question is whether or not the various
"Frisians" ought to be treated and taught as though they were separate
languages within a "Frisian language subgroup."

I totally agree that compiling mostly dictionaries does not get us very
far, although dictionaries are undoubtedly needed.  The assumption with
this preoccupation seems to me to stem from an underlying attitude that
sees Scots and Low Saxon as subsets of the related power languages,
i.e., English and Dutch/German respectively, that all people need to do
in learning, understanding and using the minority languages is to
substitute power language vocabulary items with the corresponding
minority language vocabulary items.  We all know that there is more to
it.

I have not yet seen Colin's Scots textbook (but I am eager to see it).
I can only speak about the little Scots language guides for English
speakers I have seen, and they do not amount to anything like
textbooks.  The few German-produced Low Saxon textbooks there are,
though useful to many to certain extents, are heavily German-centered,
assume knowledge of features that both languages share, thus do not
teach the language in its own right, "from the ground up," as a real
textbook ought to do in my opinion.  Rather, they attempt to teach Low
Saxon as an appendage or extension of German.  This, in my opinion
causes the teaching process to get off on the wrong foot for various
reasons, psychological and technical.  I believe that, certainly in a
textbook for non-academic purposes, a language ought to be taught as its
own entity, from the ground up, assuming no prior knowledge, with little
or no reference to related languages.  I have not yet seen such a
textbook for Low Saxon.  What we have are mostly readers or
conversational models with glossaries and sketchy grammar notes.

The Westerlauwer Frisian textbooks _Wolkom! Kursus Frysk ferstean en
lêzen_ (Jelle Bangma, Ljouwert/Leeuwarden: AFÛK, 1992, ISBN
90-6273-484-7) and _Praat ma ta! Kursus Frysk praten_ (Nynke de Vries,
Ljouwert/Leeuwarden: AFÛK, 1993) are very good, but they assume not only
Dutch proficiency but also, to a degree, the level of "cold" Frisian
comprehension of the average Dutch speaker (the two languages being
relatively closely related).  They are wonderful resources with in the
context of Frisian language classrooms in the Netherlands.

Let us take a quick look outside the Lowlands area, at Upper Sorbian
(Upper Lusatian), one of two remaining Slavic minority languages (the
other being Lower Sorbian/Lusatian) that are unique to Germany (and are
the two surviving Slavic languages with the smallest number of
speakers).  The two Sorbian languages, although in the past despised by
the German-speaking majority (including some Germanized Sorbs), thus
formerly low-prestige, have had the great advantage, if you will, of not
being related to German, the power language.  (Of course, the two are
related as Indo-European languages, but this is not what most people are
aware of or care about.)  Thus, Sorbian textbooks published in Germany
tend to teach the language from the ground up, no differently than
teaching for example Polish or Russian, or any foreign language, for
that matter.  Minority status is unimportant here.

I was already very impressed by a two-volume Lower Sorbian textbook
(Manfred Starosta, _Niedersorbisch schnell und intensiv_,
Budys^in/Bautzen: Dumowina, 1991/1992, ISBN
3-7420-0615-0/3-7420-0799-8), but its drawbacks are due to the fact that
it was written for "experts," assumes some background in Slavistics, and
it probably intimidates most folks.  Just a few days ago I received my
copy of the latest Upper Sorbian textbook (Jana S^ol/c'ina & Edward
Wornar, _Obersorbisch im Selbststudium/Hornjoserbs^c'ina za samostudij_,
Budys^in/Bautzen: Domowina, 2000, ISBN 3-7420-1779-9).  It is absolutely
wonderfully thought through and executed, treating this language as a
self-contained entity and starting off from zero, progressing smoothly
with texts (at the higher level dealing with Sorbian culture and
thought), grammar and exercises, with glossaries, exercise keys and an
accompanying audio CD.  It is thus useful for both self-study and
classroom study to anyone who can read German, also to those who have
never learned any Slavic language before.  I would be delighted to see
textbooks of this caliber for Lowlands languages such as Scots, Low
Saxon or Limburgish.  However, I am somewhat bemused by the book's
subtitle _Ein Sprachkurs für Unerschrockene/Re^c^ny kurs za
njebojaznych_, thus "a language course for the unafraid."  I take this
as being some sort of disclaimer, warning the prospective buyer that the
learner is treated as an adult (and that there are no pretty
pictures?).  As far as I can tell, any adult (or teenager) seriously
intent on learning this language, alone or with an instructor, can do so
wonderfully well with the help of this book, as long as he/she follows
it step by step and does all the exercises fully and in the prescribed
manner and sequence.

I hope that this sort of textbook will be available for Lowlands
languages in the near future.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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