LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.28 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.APR.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Ian James Parsley (Laptop)" <parsleyij at ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.28 (04) [E]

Ron,

I guess my main problem with Elaine is that she keeps being referred to
as
'Cockney' where she most certainly is not, by any standards!

(Although I remember her brother came to visit once and he, bizarrely,
*was* a Londoner!)

If I may raise a point I'd wished to raise for a while on the British
vs.
American issue - the grammatical issue of 'collective nouns'.

In British English the so-called 'rule' is that 'collective nouns' take
the
singular where referring to the unit and plural where referring to a
collection of individuals acting together.

Therefore:
'The Government is based in London' but 'The Government are considering
the
new proposals'.
'Arsenal is a football team' but 'Arsenal are ready to sign a new
forward'.
'Schweppes is part of the Coca-Cola group' but 'Schweppes are launching
a
new recruitment campaign'.

However, I cannot help but think that there is now a discernible
tendency
towards the plural in all cases, interestingly one that appears much
slower
in (Northern) Ireland than in England.

So for example I read on Ceefax, the BBC Teletext service (Teletext is a
service established in the 70s with updated news, sport, travel info etc
accessed via the TV):

'South Korea are building a new stadium'.

South Korea *are* building a new stadium? Sounds totally bizarre to me,
but
obviously the underlying ideas is 'the South Koreans are building...'

In my own usage, I still have a tendency towards the singular with 'it'
and
'which' in all such instances (ie more or less the American usage).

All comments and observations welcome!

Regards,
Ian James Parsley

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at ukonline.co.uk> wrote above:

> I guess my main problem with Elaine is that she keeps being referred
> to as 'Cockney' where she most certainly is not, by any standards!

Oh, I must have missed that, have never heard her referred to as a
Cockney. I thought Daphne ([not Elaine] played by Jane Leeves, born in
London and raised in East Grinstead, West Sussex) was first described as
coming from Manchester.

> (Although I remember her brother came to visit once and he, bizarrely,
> *was* a Londoner!)

Indeed!  :)  Well ... it's not inconceivable that siblings are raised in
different places ...

Her brother Simon, who, by the way, has shown up quite a few times in
the meantime (but those episodes may not have appeared abroad yet), is
my favorite character.  The actor really makes me laugh, representing a
constantly soused, teetering, insensitive jerk (without glorifying or
making excuses for alcoholism).  He is Anthony LaPaglia, an
(Italian-)Australian from Adelaide.  How good is his "Cockney"?  At one
point the writers poke fun at the traditional American perception of
British "accents" -- *any* "accent -- as "sophisticated," as Roz
(Frasier's assistant who is a bit rough around the edges, played by Peri
Gilpin) whispers behind Simon's back something to the effect that he --
speaking Cockney, one of the lowest-prestige dialects of Britain --
sounds so darn attractive and sophisticated (which was before she got
quite disgusted with him).

Seriously though, American movies and television programs are not
exactly known for great attempts at authentic representations.  That's
something I would expect from British ones, where money is spent on
actual research and planning, where I can pinpoint the exact decade by
the clothes fashion alone, even centuries back.  If you'd criticize
American producers regarding these lacking "finer" points, they'd
probably suggest you "get out more" (which is another way of saying you
are a geeky nerd who should get a life).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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