LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.08.15 (03) [E]

Thu Aug 15 18:52:37 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 15.AUG.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Daniel Prohaska" <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.08.14 (02) [E/German]

Höö, Helge,

   Funnily enough it is the English form "forget" which is Scandinavian,
or
rather a blend between the Old English form forgietan/forgeta
(pronounced
with a palatal "y" sound or /j/)and the Old Norse root geta (pronounced
with
/g/). So it is the "Anglo-Saxon" mainland form that survived in some
Scots
dialects that was transplanted to Shetland.

   Frisian pronuncition is similar because Old English and Old Frisian
had a
series of sound changes in common, among which is the afore mentioned
palatalisation of /g/ in some instances.

   Other Frisian connections between the Faroes and Shetland are not
known
to me, however since the Frisians were always great seafarers it seems
quite
possible that there was contact.

Dan

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From: Dan Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com
Subject: "Language Contacts"

Moin Helge,

  I have just gone through Jakobsen`s dictionary of late 18th century
survivals of Shetland Norn. It cites a reconstructed form *glem /gle:m/
"forget, neglect" cognate to Old Norse/Icelandic glöyma/gleyma forget.
Only
"misglöm" survives.

Dan

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From: "Matthew Davies" <supertaff7 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Interest in the revival of Cornish.

Hello all,
          As a new member, living in South Wales, I read with interest
Dan Prohaska's article, especially his interest in the revival of
Kernew,or Cornish.
My late grandfather was a Devonian (from Ilfracombe) and spoke the
dialect of that area, but his ancestors came from Brittany.
I remember him saying that a Welshman, Cornishman, and a Bretton,
speaking their native "tongues" , should be able to understand each
other.
Does anyone have any views or theories on this ?
As a Welsh speaker, I know that many of our words are very akin to some
Germanic and French words ;ie the word for "window" in Welsh is
"FFENESTR".
I am interested in the AFRIKAANS language, and would be greatful if
anyone
could point me in the right direction, as to date, have found only
limited
resources on the internet.
Best wishes to all....... Matt.(DAVIES)

From: Dan Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com
Subj.: Language Contacts

Anwyl Matt, bore da,

   Delighted to hear that the Cornish language, Kernowek (also Kernewek,
Kernuack, or Curnooack) sparks interest outside of Cornwall, Kernow.
Since
this topic is little outside the realm of this discussion groupe I shall
bring it into context and try and answer you questions at the same time.

   Cornish, Welsh and Breton are mutually incomprehensible today. With
knowledge of one of these languages it is possible to recognise a fair
amount of words, possible even understand a few slowly spoken sentences
and
phrases, however fluent, meaningful discussion is impossible. The
principle
structure of these three Brythonic languages is very similar, so once
you`ve
leart one, you`ll find it very easy to learn the next.

   Intercomprehension between the Brythonic languages has always been
exaggerated. There is for example the legend of Breton traders of onions
making themselves understood to the Welsh in Breton. I believe these
Breton
traders simply learnt rudimentary Welsh and spoke it with a heavy Breton
accent. It is true however that Cornish and Breton were mutually
comprehensible to a certain extent until the 15th century, or even as
late
as the reformation, after wich cultural and linguistic ties were finally
severed. Before then, but much more thereafter Cornish and Breton were
increasingly seperated by the different influences from their respective
neighbouring languages, namely English and French.

   The English language had a very profound impact on the syllabic
structure, not to mention the vocabulary, of Cornish. An article about
this
will be forthcoming. Eventually Cornish fell out of use as a community
language around 1800. Speakers with knowledge of Cornish we found as
late as
the 1870ies, but their Cornish was very restricted in use (old fishermen
exchanging fishing terminology etc.). Fish were counted in Cornish on
the
fish market of St.Ives until ca. 1930.

   Until the end of Roman reign in Britain C,W + B were part of one
dialect
continuum, or language, British. During the Roman colonisation many
words
were borrowed into British from Latin, among which was the colloquial
Latin
word fenestra window, which then became ffenestr in Welsh and fenester
in
Cornish. There are many more examples, among which are:

Latin           French          Welsh           Cornish         English
pons, pont- pont                        pont            pons
bridge
ecclesia        église                eglwys  eglos
church
crux            croix                   croes           crows
cross
portus  port                    porth           porth
port,harbour
molina  moulin          melin           melyn                   mill
fossa           fosse                   ffos            fos
wall, ditch, dyke

Matt, if you want to know more about Cornish, contact me personally
daniel at ryan-prohaska.com then we won`t have to burden this discussion
groupe
with "un-Lowlandic" stuff.

Dan

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Contacts

Dear All

Helge wrote:
> I have checked John's web-site and I noticed that
the
> word "forget" is "foryat" in Shetlandic,

And Sandy answered:
>I would think "foryat" in Shetlandic is from mainland
Scots.
>We can see this sort of thing in older Scots, for
example in
>Alexander Montgomerie's "The Cherrie and the Slae"
(where the
>"3" character is pronounced /j/):

This has surprised me! The transformation of historic
initial 'g' to 'y/j' was quite a common one in the
Lowland languages, especially in Frisian and
Old/Middle English (compare also modern Köln and
Berlin dialects). This trend in English was often
reversed though due to the influence of Scandinavian.
Thus 'get' and 'give' regained their 'g's.
The above 'foryat' and Scots 'y-' instead of 'g-' has
surprised me because the Scandinavian influence on the
language was often much greater in Scotland - and
especially the Northern Isles - than in England. Does
anyone have any answers as to why this trend was not
reversed in Scots as in English?

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