LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.12 (03) [E]

Tue Feb 12 20:03:03 UTC 2002

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From: AEDUIN at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.12 (01) [E]

Reinhard

See the example given on the site which is part rhyming slang, I will put in a
few of the rhyming words.

Cockney Passage

I was in the Karsi, sitting on me Kyber (PASS), using the grey matter,when I
thought, wouldn't it be nice if me Dutch(ess) (OF FIFE) made some Rosy (LEE).
She
got some fresh Adam's there. So I went down the Apples (PEARS) and told her.
We
could go up to the Rubba (DUB TUB). Me in me best Whistle (AND FLUTE) and
Titfer
(TAT) and me new Daisy's* (ROOTS)
(Please note the inclusion of other slang eg. Adam's Ale which is water)

The double words are joined grammatically by either no extra word or by OF or
AND
etc.

I believe the origin to have been amongst the cockney costermongers and may
have
been in part a response to the growth of other argots in London or even the
increasing use of Yiddish.

The common tongue in use in the area before this may well have been thieve's
cant
which I "nante parle", to quote an underworld/theatrical/gay language.

Such rhyming slang as I did learn was learnt as with any other language from
my
elders along with bits of other slangs from London and the Print industry.

The interesting thing about the above mixture is that here you had the
language
of those living on the fringe mixing with that of one of the more
self-conscious
and secure employed groups.

* "Daisy's" is strictly incorrect as it should be just Daisy (ROOTS) for boots
but the first part of the double can take on a life of its own and be
pluralised
etc., especially to make grammatical sense.

Regards

Edwin Deady

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Expressions"

> "From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.10 (02) [E]
>
> Well, here's what my Webster's has to say about it, and pardon my
> French:
> "nitty-gritty (US English). Origin black slang: rhyming euphemism for
> 'shitty'.
> The actual, basic facts, elements, issues &c."

I rather wonder about this. Is the word "shitty" actually used
in black slang to mean "the actual, basic facts &c"? Even if
it is, it seems unnecessary in order to explain the expression
"nitty-gritty". Do rhyming euphemisms (note that this isn't the
same thing as rhyming slang) of this sort occur for other phrases
in the same sort of slang?

Chambers 21st Century Dictionary gives this as American origin
from about 1960, but that's all.

> From: AEDUIN at aol.com
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.11 (02) [E]
>
> Just a point of fact. The whole thing about rhyming slang is that the
rhyming
> part is not said. This is a basic error made when talking about
> rhyming slang. For example, "stairs" in rhyming slang is not "apples and
> pears" it is "apples" with both speakers knowing that the word "pears" is
> implied and it is that word that rhymes. One combs one's "barnet" not
one's
> "barnet fair".

The whole phrase is sometimes said. The (or just one?)
theory of Cockney rhyming slang is that it was originally
used by the market traders (you can see these stalls often
enough in the fictional Albert Square of the popular English
soap opera "Eastenders") where, lacking a "back shop", they
would use indirect language to talk business without the
ever-present customers and police officers finding out the
true quality/price/legal status of the goods. At first a
simple rhyme suffices to hint at the real meaning to a fellow
trader, eg "pony and trap" (crap). Since this is a bit of a
mouthful compared to the normal way of saying it, there also
develops the habit of truncating the phrase to one word, with
the bonus that it becomes much more opaque to the uninitiated,
eg, "It's a load of pony". I'm not sure of the original
intention behind the pattern "phrase + rhyme". Why not just
"rhyme"? I suppose that either the "phrase" part is supplied
to draw attention away from the rhyme, or the rhythm of the
phrase was intended to clue the other trader in to the fact
that it wasn't a literal statement, or just possibly the whole
system was deliberately thought out so that all trace of the
original word could eventually be eradicated (but this seems
a bit far-fetched to me).

This went on to become a habit, with most of the language,
not just marketplace terms, being treated this way. This
may be borne out by the fact that Cockneys now often apply
truncation when the rest of a phrase is understood, not just
in rhyming slang but in any cliched expression, eg, "Now, now,
people who live in glass.", "He's gone home for a bit of how's
your.", "You'll be the death, I swear."

Cockneys I know do say that the standard phrases that are
well-known in Britain (partly due to the influence of such
programmes as "Minder", "Only Fools and Horses" and
"Eastenders") are only the tip of the iceberg, that is to
say, the programmes are carefully tailored for a national
audience. My father tells me that when he was in the merchant
navy in the 1950s the language of the Cockney seamen was
completely unintelligible - that is, every word was English,
but words such as nouns, which carry most of the meaning,
just didn't have the expected meanings as a rule.

An example of "unintelligible" Cockney is heard in the rather
silly but enjoyable black comedy film "Lock, Stock and Two
Smoking Barrels". It's a longish recounting of an earlier
incident in the film by a barman - you'll know the scene
because it's subtitled in more conventional English.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

Thanks again, Edwin and Sandy.  This is very interesting.

So let me try ...

Edwin:

> I was in the Karsi, sitting on me Kyber (PASS), using the grey matter,when
> I
> thought, wouldn't it be nice if me Dutch(ess) (OF FIFE) made some Rosy
> (LEE). She
> got some fresh Adam's there. So I went down the Apples (PEARS) and told
> her. We
> could go up to the Rubba (DUB TUB). Me in me best Whistle (AND FLUTE) and
> Titfer
> (TAT) and me new Daisy's* (ROOTS)

"I was in the Karsi (?), sitting on my (Kyber (Pass) =) arse [oops! filter
material!], (using the grey matter =) thinking (or "racking my brain"?), when
I thought, 'Wouldn't it be nice if my (Duchess (of Fife) =) wife made some
(Rosy (Lee) =) tea.  She got some fresh (Adam's =) pants (???) there.'  So I
went down the (apples (and pears) =) stairs and told her. We could go up to
the (rubba (dub tub) =) pub, me in (me =) my best (whistle (and flute) =) suit
and (titfer (tat) =) hat and (me =) my new (daisy (roots) =) boots."

Edwin:

> The interesting thing about the above mixture is that here you had the > language
> of those living on the fringe mixing with that of one of the more > self-conscious
> and secure employed groups.

Indeed!  This is also what happened when Rotwelsch expressions entered German
(and some from German into Low Saxon/Low German).  This is in fact how many
Yiddish words were adopted into German, some semantically unchanged (e.g.,
_meschugge_ < Y. _meshuge_ 'crazy' < Hebrew _meshugah_ 'crazy') and others
semantically changed by way of Rotwelsch (e.g., L.S. _dibbern_ < G. _dibbern_
'to talk nonsense', 'to beg', 'to pester' < Y. _dibern_ 'to talk' < H.
_l'daber_ 'to talk', 'to speak'; G. _Mischpoche_ 'gang', 'bunch (of
hooligans)', 'family (of ill repute)' < Y. _mishpokhe_ 'family' < H.
_mishpaHah_ 'family', but also not necessarily that negative, as in _Er
brachte die ganze Mischpoche mit_ 'He came with kith and kin', 'He brought
everyone and their uncle with him').

Edwin

> The common tongue in use in the area before this may well have been
> thieve's cant
> which I "nante parle", to quote an underworld/theatrical/gay language.

We have talked about this jargon before:

LL-L: "Fringe varieties" (was "Classification") [E] LOWLANDS-L, 30.JUN.1999
(01)
===start quote===

From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Classification

Jason Childers asked about Polari, used by theatrical and circus people.

There is a note about it in the Technical Terms section of the Penguin
edition (1972) of Eric Partridge's "Dictionary of Historical Slang". I find
Partridge's notes difficult to understand, here and elsewhere, but he says
in part:

"Parlary". The "Lingua Franca" - but actually as to 90% of its words,
Italianate - vocabulary of C18-mid-19 actors and mid-C-19-20 costermongers
[~street traders] and showmen. ....
A full account of this Cinderella among languages appears in my book of
essays ... "Here, There and Everywhere".
"Parlary" is more general than the less serviceable Parlyaree. In late
C19-early 20, "palarey"  or "palary" [by which I assume he means the use of
Parlary] was very common, esp, among music-hall artists.

Partridge doesn't mention that P later became a gay slang. In this form it
got an airing in a British radio comedy show "Round the Horne" 25 ? years
ago. Two characters called "Jules" and "Sand" peppered their sentences with
P phrases, occasionally but not always translated. Kenneth Horne, the
straight man, was greeted with "How bona to varda ya dolly old eek" [my
orthography and memory] which plausibly means "How nice to see your dear
face". I think most listeners probably didn't recognise the source and
thought the words were simply invented ad hoc.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

===end quote===

LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 15.MAR.2000 (03) [E]
===start quote===

From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: Fw: polari - a gay slang with some occitan words

Is anybody familiar with the language/slang variety "Polari".
The first time I heard about it, is in the message below, from the occitan
list.
Regards,
Roger
----- Original Message -----
From: Maxime Boisset <maxime.boisset at wanadoo.fr>
To: list-oc <list-oc at cco.asso.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 7:16 PM
Subject: polari - a gay slang with some occitan words
Adieu-siatz a totes,
Los omosexuals angleses parl(av)an un argòt qu'a de mots venguts de
l'occitan via la lingua franca.
A quick Polari lexicon:
bevvy = drink = beure
bijou = small = pichon
feel = child = filh
ogle = eye = uèlh
omi = man = òme
Per ne saber mai:
http://www.stg.brown.edu/webs/corre/franca/edition2/polari.html
http://www.cygnet.co.uk/~cdenning/polari.html
--------- endquote

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

In response to Roger's question about Polari (above):

I am not really familiar with Polari but know a little bit about it.  It seems
to me that there are lots of myths and half-truths about it.

First of all, let it be said that Polari is an *English-based* *jargon*.  I
think this describes it much better than does "gay slang."  Because it is a
variety of English, discussing Polari here seems to be within the guidelines
of LL-L.

It is generally believed that Polari started in London, England, at a time
when openly homosexual people where even more marginalized than they are
nowadays, where their world rubbed shoulders with the worlds of other
marginalized members of society, such as various types of entertainers (e.g.,
circus people and vaudeville performers) and socially more or less excluded
people (e.g., Roma ("Gypsies") and various types of foreigners), and, yes,
probably also with the underworld.  This would explain why Polari has a
decidedly international character and also contains elements of rhyming
slang.  Included are also Yiddish-derived elements (e.g., _meshigener_
'crazy', _nishta_ 'nothing', 'zippo', _gelt_ 'money'), which may have reached
Polari indirectly, much like Yiddish elements having reached German via the
"Rotwelsch" underworld jargon.

Indeed, some of the Romance-derived expression in Polari (_polari_ < _parlare_
'to talk', 'to chat') seem to be of Occitan origin, perhaps because of
connections with people from Southern France.  However, the exact Romance
origin of many words is not clear, such as _capello_ 'hat', _bona_ 'good', or
_omi_ 'man'.  Also, there seem to be made-up Romance-based words, such as
_fantabulosa_ 'wonderful', 'splendid' (< _fantastico_ + _fabuloso_?).

It is also important to note that quite a few Polari expressions have filtered
into other varieties of English, and some of them are now used and understood
by the majority of English speakers everywhere.  Examples: _trade_ 'sex',
_troll_ 'to cruise (for sex)', _bod_ 'body', _dish_ 'attractive male' (>
_dishy_ 'sexually appealing'), _doll_ 'nice person' (> _dolly_ 'nice',
'kind'), _drag_ 'cross-dress', _fruit_ 'affeminate male', "queen".

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

===end quote===

LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 16.MAR.2000 (01) [E/Ap]
===start quote===

Georg Deutsch at ESA
03/16/2000 10:27 AM

In response to Roger's question about Polari, Reinhard (Ron) gave
interesting
information.

For me this also is totally new.

Is there any indication of the age of Polari?

Reinhard, your statement: " Indeed, some of the Romance-derived expression
in
Polari (_polari_ < _parlare_
'to talk', 'to chat') seem to be of Occitan origin..." suggests to me that
it
might be old.
Whilst I am aware that Occitan is not dead at all, I thought that Occitan
is
in such a defensive position since quite some centuries, that it could not
be
expected to contrubute productive to another idiom out of this position. Or
is this conclusion not justified, at least as far it concerns a jargon which
is used by "marginalized members of society"?

kind regards,
Georg

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Georg,

You asked about the age of Polari.  The jargon can be traced back to
eighteenth century Britain.  Along the way it has been fertilized by
other jargons.

Here is an excerpt from a brief history (http://members.aol.com/frij/):

<quote>

Gay slang in Britain dates back to the involvement of the homosexual
subculture with the criminal "underworld". The homosexual subculture of
the Eighteenth Century mixed with the gypsies, tramps & thieves of
popular song to produce a rich cross-fertilisation of customs, phrases
and traditions. As the Industrial revolution dramatically changed
settlement patterns, more and more people drifted away from villages
and small communities and moved to larger towns in search of work and
opportunity. In these larger urban locations, the scope for the
development of communities of outcasts substantially increased. The
growth of molly houses (private spaces for men to meet, drink, have sex
together and practice communal rituals) encouraged the creation of a
molly identity. A linguistic culture developed, feeding into that
profession traditionally associated with poofs and whores: theatre.

Much of parlarey, the travelling showmen's language, appears to be
derived from the lingua franca or the vocabulary of travelling actors
and showmen during the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries.
Specifically theatrical parlyaree included phrases such as joggering
omee (street musician), slang a dolly to the edge (to show and work a
marionette on a small platform outside the performance booth in order
to attract an audience) and climb the slanging-tree (perform onstage).
Nanty dinarly (having no money) also had a peculiarly theatrical
translation in the phrase "There's no treasury today, the ghost doesn't
walk."

The disappearance of large numbers of traveling costermongers and
cheapjacks by the early twentieth century effectively denied the
language its breathing space. As many of the travelling entertainers
moved sideways into traveling circus, so the language moved with them,
kept alive as a living and changing language within circus culture.

By the mid-twentieth century, there had also been a cross-over to a
recognisably gay form of slang, with polari used by the gay community
to communicate in code in elaborate forms. Words such as trade and ecaf
(backslang for face, shortened to eek) became part of gay subculture.
Blagging trade (picking up sexual partners), zhoosing your riah (doing
your hair), trolling to a bijou bar (stepping into a gay club) and
dishing the dirt (recounting gossip) all became popular coded phrases
to describe and encode an emerging homosexual lifestyle. By the 1950's,
with secret homosexual clubs emerging in swinging London and the
Wolfenden Committee discussing the possibility of law reform around
(homo) sexuality, it seems appropriate that polari should raise its
irreverent head.

Polari became an appropriate tool with which to confuse and confound
the naff omees (straight men). It traveled the world via the sea
queens, who incorporated navy slang into a new version of the language
and also accommodated local dialects and phrases.

</quote>

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

===end quote===

Sandy:

> "Lock, Stock and Two
> Smoking Barrels". It's a longish recounting of an earlier
> incident in the film by a barman - you'll know the scene
> because it's subtitled in more conventional English.

As an explanation for those subscribers who are not familiar with the original
English expression, it is "lock, stock and barrel" (in reference to guns or
canons) meaning something like "the whole thing," "in its entirety,"
"everything included" (e.g., "He sold his house, lock, stock and barrel").

Here in the University District of Seattle we have a pub-like establishment
with the derivative name "Lox, Stock and Bagel" (_lox_ 'European-style smoked
salmon' < Yiddish _loks_ [cf. German _Lachs_ 'salmon'], _bagel_ 'ring-shaped
bread roll' < Yiddish _beygl_ 'little ring' [< *_böügl_, cf. < Old High German
_boug_ 'ring' + diminutive /+ at l/]), referring to a favorite Northeast Coast
snack combo (which tends to come with cream cheese, also with onions and
capers) that has now become very popular in the rest of North America.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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