LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.15 (01) [E/LS/Z]

Mon Jul 15 17:10:07 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 15.JUL.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.14 (05){E]

Ysmael wrote:

From: Ysmael Tisnado <guarda3 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.14 (04) [E]

In ladino we say niyet,echos buenos,mazal tov,vwena
ventura,besi mantove all mean good luck as you can the
hebrew is used also in Ladino. to dissappear here goes
in ladino
desapareser-deperder(se)-esvanecer-desaparecer,spanish desaparecer,

Hi, Ysmael, Ron,

Thank You, Ysmael, for Your postings regarding angels. It's surprising
(and-
on the other side-  not!), how many different words there are for this
christianic phenomene.
But- I fear, all of them don't help me to find the special angel having
been
landed on any european airport at a time, long ago!

Ron, You proved Yourself as an "etymological angel" in former times! Is
it
still too warm in Seattle for having any thoughts, just a little bit
"nearer
to the sun"? Other people have been "Sleepless (may be: "restless") in
Seattle"!*s*

I am really interested in this question, because I could be enabled to
point
out some more facts being of interest in our LL-L-table.

Cool down, man!

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.13 (04) [E/LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Dach ook, Leeglanners, Ron,
>
>bie'nt Stíºšíµ²n in't LL-L-Archiv fí±ºí¾ ick 'n poor Weeken aule Víº›í²§ang
>wegen
>dat Verschuuwen von *f* tau *ch*, faaken tau seihn in't
>Hollandsche/Flaamsche.
>
>Ron schreev dortau okk'n Biespeel uut'n Plattdí²³í´³chen: hauchdí²³í´³ch
>"Luft"
>(air) woor tau "Lucht". Dat schall woll sau angohn, door giff't noch dat
>Verbum "(hauch-)lí±Ží¸´en" ("to lift up"), watt doortau tau híº›í²® schient.
>(Hett de "Lupp [Heu,op de Fork]", dennen wi opt 'Fíºší¸²" [Fuder]
>hauchlí±Ží¸¥n
>mí²í³¥n, dor ook watt mit tau dauhn?)
>
>Blauts- in uns' Geigend, anne Kí²í´§ un' anne Elv, gifft dat noch
>mennigmool
>sauwatt as (Upper Germ.) "Hohe Lucht" or "Hohe Luft". Datt sí±ºí¾ freuher
>Lí±Ží¸´tíº í¾ (fire-houses) ween, un' tau dat Substantiv "Licht"  ward ook
>in
>uns Tieden noch "Lucht" seegt- overs "lí±Ží¸´ mi mool" ("give me a
>light?!")
>in't Verbum.
>Schien't 'n beeten Kuddelmuddel tau ween.
>
>Fiete.
>

Moin Fiete !

Bi: ues in 't O:stfrÃ¤island hebbent wi: 'n hÃ¤iel bÃ¼elt wo:rden mit
~ch~ wor
annern 'n ~f~ hebbent, so: as: "lÃ¼cht" (Luft) un "kracht" (Kraft),
hecht
(Heft = Messergriff) un 'n bÃ¼elt me:er.

Kumpelment
Holger

Hello Fiete !
In Eastern Friesland Low Saxon we have many words with ~ch~ instead of
~f~
in other dialects. Such as "lÃ¼cht" (air; heaven), "kracht" (power,
strength), hecht (the grip of a knife) and many others.

Greetings
Holger

----------

From: Ysmael Tisnado <guarda3 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.13 (04) [E/LS]

In Ladino we say la presona komi or kome which is of
Spanish or manji or manja which is French in origin or
Italian origin manga. I don't remember the other words
or expressions to answer your other input. In French
Manger,In Spanish comer its the same in Portuegese. I
have not mastered the Scots or Irish gaelic or the
Yiddisch yet.

=====
Yshmael Escudero Luna Tisnado(Coronet)II=YELTCII-guarda3 at yahoo.com

----------

From: Ysmael Tisnado <guarda3 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.13 (04) [E/LS]

It's said when
> >a
> >person has been able to eat a lot of food.=In
Spanish its: gloton;In ladino its
arrevanador,paponero,chicharon,golozo,achyoz,arresvalar;In
Portuegese its :glutao-glutona;In French is
:glouton-gourmand;In Italian:ghiotonne,goloso,mangione
> ......>
> >Is there another region in the Lowlands where
> "aderen" are used in
> >connection with "food"=comida in Spanish,French
nourriture,in Portuegese:comida,cibo in Italian or
nutrimento,viveri;In
Ladino:Konducho,komida,komanya,alimento
> >
> > first that of the whole phrase (somewhat like "You
> have eaten too
> much")= mangez vous beaucoup de nourriture in
French,Voce comido muita comida in Portuegese,Lei a
mangiato moltissimoIn Italian,In Spanish usted a
comido mucho,In ladino vos a manjado muncho or vos a
komido muncho.
> > But the truth is: its derived from the Yiddish
> "haslach ben broch" (luck
> and blessing).
>
> Thank you Holger for furnishing this in Yiddisch.> >
in Ladino and Hebrew is malach for angel but angel
like I don't know if it exists in either language

Datt sünn freuher
> Lüchttörn (fire-houses)=In Ladino its does not
exist,In Spanishmaybe bomberia,In the other latin
languages I can't find the equivalent of a fire-house.

> uns Tieden noch "Lucht" seegt- overs "lücht mi mool"
> ("give me a
> light?!")=Panamian Spanish prendeme candela,In
ladino dami lumbre,Spanish me puede prender el
cigarro.

=====
Yshmael Escudero Luna Tisnado(Coronet)II=YELTCII-guarda3 at yahoo.com

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.07.13 (04) [E/LS]

John le Grange schreef:

> > In reading some of the recent contributions I was struck by verb forms
> > that I assumed had come into Afrikaans as a
> > result of mishearing or mispronouncing the 17 th century Dutch by the
> > mixed bag of early settlers at the Cape.
> >
> > I was astonished to find that the verb gee loses the "f" in some of the
> > languages spoken in the lowlands countries
> >
> > Ik geef (I give) in Dutch ek gee in Afrikaans

As far as I now, the form _gee_ (to give) is exclusive
to Zeelandic (and Afrikaans of course). There were a few
postings about this subject on the Zeelandic e-mail list
'Zeêbanket op 't Zeêlandnet' recently*. From one I quote
(note that in Zeelandic the 'g' sounds like an 'h' most of
the time, therefore _geven_ is spelled _heven_ by some):

"Wat a'k zeie wou: over de vervoeging van het werkwoord
geve. Volgens mien (ik komme uut Domburg) gieng 't bie
ons  zò:

Onbepaalde wijs: hee(ve)

ik gee(ve)
jie heeft
ie heeft
ons gee(ve)
julder hee(ve)
ulder hee(ve)

Om even in het Nederlands door te gaan: Volgens mij is die
verkorte versie (hee of gee) aan het uitsterven. Alleen ouderen
of mensen die bewust dialect willen spreken zeggen nog 'Ik gee'
of 'ons gee'. Hoe meer ik erover nadenk, en die woorden uitspreek,
hoe vreemder het me in de oren klinkt.
De infinitief 'hee' houdt zich het best staande. 'Wie moet er hee',
wordt er gezegd bij kaarten. Of: 'Kun je dat niet teruggee?' Maar
'heve' of 'teruggeve' zou ook heel gewoon zijn."

> > Would the same be true of ek glo -- ik geloof (I believe) bly for blijf
> > (to stay or inhabit ) but the word to live (om te leef)
> > does not lose its final "f"
> > another irregularity??

In Zeelandic, we also have the form _gloo_ besides
_geloven_ (to believe) in some cases:

'Da gloô'k nie!' - I don't believe that
'Da gae nogà wél, gloô'k' - That goes pretty well, I believe

The same goes for _bluve_ (to stay). There are some
cases in which the f sometimes is not pronounced:
'Bluu-je 'ier?' - Are you staying here
'Bluu-t'r van!' - Don't touch that, stay away from it

> > in Afrikaans is the survival of the plural or
> > infinitive form in the case of some verbs where the
> > shortened verion would be expected
> > ek doen instead of ik doe (I do)
> > ek staan instead of ik sta (I stand)
> > the verb gaan follows the same rule

These verbs have an -n in most Zeelandic dialects
as well. Dutch has infinitive -n as the standard
form for the first person singular, while Zeelandic has
the infinitive. So in parts of Zeeland where the infinitive
has no n, the first person singular has no n as well. And
in those parts of Zeeland where the infinitive has an n,
the first person singular has an n as well.
So:

doee - doen:
ik doee / ik doen
jie doet
ie/zie doet
ons doee / doen
julder doee / doen
ulder doee / doen

leve(n):
ik leve / ik leven
jie leeft
ie/zie leeft
ons leve / leven
julder leve / leven
ulder leve / leven

But there are exceptions to that rule. A lot of dialects
(mostly those of the isles of Walcheren, Zuid-
Beveland and Tholen) have an infinitive without
an n for the verbs _gae_, _stae_ and _doee_, but
the first person singular dóes have an n:

ik doen - ons doe
ik gaen - ons gae
ik staen - ons stae

So this is the case for exactly the same verbs as in
Afrikaans.
Wait, I can think of one more verb that has the
same irregular form: _lae_ (Dutch _laden_, to load):
ik laen, jie laet, ie/zie laet, ons laee, julder lae...

*Ron wrote under administrativia: "For some
reason there has been a boom in subscription
by Zeelanders.  I wonder what brought that on
all of a sudden."
Well, I think it is this recent discussion about the
verb _gee/geven_ (to give) on the Zeêbanket-
mailinglist. I mentioned Lowlands-L there, because
Zeêbanket is not really about linguistic subjects,
but about literature; Zeêbanket-members share texts
in Zeelandic with eacht other.
Anyhow, welkom Zeêuwen, Zeêuwinnen en Zelpjes!
En laet j'n eige gerust 's 'ore at 't zò te passe komt.

Groetenisse,

Marco Evenhuis

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

But doesn't Afrikaans also have _gee_ for 'give'?

Anyway, folks, do me a favor and (1) stick to the focus of the Lowlands
languages, and (2) read the rules and guidelines
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html) before you get
(farther) into posting.

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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