LL-L "Etymology" 2002.05.20 (03) [D/E/LS]

Mon May 20 16:15:15 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAY.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "W!M" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.05.19 (02) [E]

Hoi!

In 'tNederlands betekend "kreng ook lichaam van een dood dier,
In Dutch "kreng" also means dead animals body.
Some examples: "Krengen ton" = the container used for dead animals on
farms.
Het word pink is ook Nederlands. The word pink is also Dutch, it is your
smallest  Figer.
And also the word Kreng is used for a very nasty and bitchy woman.. Je
bent
een kreng!  (You are such a bitch!)

Bye!  Wim Verdoold  wkv at home.nl

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.05.19 (05) [E]

Ron wrote:

> Does Scots _owerset_ in the sense of 'to translate' belong to a
> relatively old layer in Common Germanic, with a semantic value that
> English has lost, or has Scots rather acquired this semantic value under
> foreign influence?  In other words, is _owerset_ a calque (i.e., loan
> translation) that came to coincide with an already existing word?  If
> so, from which language did this meaning come?  North Germanic would be
> one's first guess, given the history of Viking invasions and settlements
> in Scotland.  But are Scandinavian _oversætte_, _översätta_, etc.,
> really that old?  Low Saxon would in my opinion be the second candidate,
> given its international reach through trading until the 17th century.

Another candidate: Dutch. And a very plausible one, considering other
Dutch
loans in Scots, including pinkie!
Nowadays, _vertalen_ is the more usual Dutch word for 'translate', but
_overzetten_ used to be the normal form untill not that long ago (late
19th
century). I think that when Ron states that the most western dialects of
Low
Saxon in Germany have forms like _vertalen_ and _vertaoln_, these would
be
relatively recent loans from Dutch (possibly through Low Saxon as spoken
in
the Netherlands).
Translators of biblical and other 'serious' texts still use _overzetten_
as
the normal word for 'translate'. Several dialects and regional languages
in
the Netherlands and Flanders, including my own Zeelandic, have also kept
_overzetten_.

> But Scots has another _redd_ ~ _rede_ [rid] with many meanings, such as
> 'to clear' and 'to free'.  The Chambers makes the same connection that
> came to my mind right away: Middle Dutch and Middle Low Saxon _reden_
> and Old English _ræædan_ 'to arrange', to put in order'

What about Dutch _redden_ (German _retten_): 'to save'?

> This appears to be what is found in German _bereiten_ 'to
> prepare' and _bereit_ 'prepared', 'ready'.  Also, it is related to
> 'ready' (= "prepared") < Middle English _rædi(g)_ ~ _re(a)di_ < Old
> English _rææde_, Old German _reiti_, Old Norse _reithr_.  Modern Low
> Saxon still has _redi(g)_ ['re:dI(C)] ~ _redid(g)_ ['rEdI(C)] 'ready',
> 'prepared', 'tidy', 'convenient', 'easy', 'efficient', which in some
> dialects can also be used in the sense of 'truly', 'really', 'very' (cf.
> English "readily" as in "readily available").

This reminds me of the Zeelandic word _redder_ for 'ready': ''bin je noe
a
schrap mee j'n 'uuswerk? Ik wille naè Stad! - Jae'k, 'k bin naebie
redder"
("Have you finished your homework yet? I want to go to town! - Yes, I'm
almost ready").

regards,

Marco

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From: "" <johnno55 at excite.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.05.19 (02) [E]

Hi all

Groete aan almal

The use of the word pinkie is for one's little finger is very common in
South African English - this may of course originate from the large
numbers of 1820 settlers of Scots descent or even the Scots farmers who
were placed in the Free State Province in the early nineteen hundreds.

The word in its Afrikaans pronounciation but similar spelling is also
very widespread here in Johannesburg. this may be a borrowing "'n
anglisisme soos die taalkundiges sou sê". I would have assumed that the
words were cognates had it not been for the discussion here.

John le Grange

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: "Etymology" 2002.05.19 (05)

Moin, Ron, Lowlanders/Leeglanners,

Ron schreew:

...Also, I am rather intrigued by the Scots verb _redd_ ~ _rede_ [rid].
Among its meanings are 'to explain' and 'to interpret (from one spoken
language into another)'.  I immediately thought of Low Saxon and German
_reden_ 'to talk', but the Chambers points to _read_, which means 'to
interpret (dreams, riddles, etc.)', 'to foretell (the future)', etc., so
there appears to be a connection with _read_ 'to read'.  But wait!
There's more!  Of course they are related too!  Old English _ræædan_,
Old Saxon _râdan_, Old German _ratan_ and Old Norse _ráþa_ ("ra'tha")
mean 'to advise', 'to consider', 'to discern' (> Low Saxon _Raad_ etc.
'advice', 'council').

But Scots has another _redd_ ~ _rede_ [rid] with many meanings, such as
'to clear' and 'to free'.  The Chambers makes the same connection that
came to my mind right away: Middle Dutch and Middle Low Saxon _reden_
and Old English _ræædan_ 'to arrange', to put in order' < Germanic
*_raidh-_.  This appears to be what is found in German _bereiten_ 'to
prepare' and _bereit_ 'prepared', 'ready'.  Also, it is related to
'ready' (= "prepared") < Middle English _rædi(g)_ ~ _re(a)di_ < Old
English _rææde_, Old German _reiti_, Old Norse _reithr_.  Modern Low
Saxon still has _redi(g)_ ['re:dI(C)] ~ _redid(g)_ ['rEdI(C)] 'ready',
'prepared', 'tidy', 'convenient', 'easy', 'efficient', which in some
dialects can also be used in the sense of 'truly', 'really', 'very' (cf.
English "readily" as in "readily available"). ...

Door givv't noch'n Woord in Platt, mitn'n heel besüüner Meent: *rooden*.
Dat
is inne Neicht von "to clear,  to free" un waard bruukt, wenn einer 'n
Weihdog laus waar'n will un tau'n kunnich aule Frau or 'n wiesen
Scheeper
geiht, de 'n lütt beeten Hand oppleggen deiht (hauchdüütsch:
"besprechen",
engl: "to conjure[?]"), und denn schall't weller beeter war'n.

Adschüß

Fiete.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Fiete,

Dat "roden", vun dat Du baven schreven hest, dat is eenklich /raad-n/
_raden_ ['rQ:dn=] ~ [ro:dn=].  (Wenn 't */roud-n/ *_roden_ weer, denn
weer 't in Dien Dialekt *_rauden_.)

Dat is dat sülvige _raden_ as dat, vun dat ik schreven harr:

> Old English _ræædan_,
> Old Saxon _râdan_, Old German _ratan_ and Old Norse _ráþa_ ("ra'tha")
> mean 'to advise', 'to consider', 'to discern' (> Low Saxon _Raad_ etc.
> 'advice', 'council').

Fiete wrote about the Low Saxon (Low German) verb _roden_ denoting
psychic healing, and I pointed out that it is really _raden_ and is
related to the "advising" group (i.e., 'to counsel') I had written
about.

Please also note Danish and Dano-Norwegian (Bokmål) _allerede_ for
'already'.  Is it native, or is it borrowed from Middle Low Saxon?
Swedish has _redan_ (related), and Icelandic has _(nú) þegan_ for
'already'.  English _already_ tends to be listed as a native coumpound.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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